Note: At the time this interview was conducted, the Sandra Day O’Connor Institute was known as “O’Connor House.” The organization’s name was changed in 2015.
O’Connor House
Today is February 29, 2016. We are interviewing Brian Day O’Connor at the O’Connor House in Tempe, Arizona. What are your earliest memories of this house?
Brian O’Connor
Oh, this house. We had a little wading pool, just outside the living room, dining area here. And it probably measured, maybe, eight feet across by about 16 feet long. And a relative of ours, our plumber, who is a relative, wonderful fellow, Phil Billingsley had created a really interesting fountain and sculpture that was in the middle. And that was, we had no swimming pool back then. So that was our little wading pool when we were that tall, we would wade in that little pool. And then from there, just all the fun times we had as a family. I mean, my parents for many Halloweens, my mom dressing up as a witch, my dad dressing up as a hunchback, and, and then the three boys, we would, we would have a, a haunted room down the hall, and we’d bring all kinds of kids through here. And so, just lots of fun things like that.
O’Connor House
So what was it like living here when your mother became the senate majority leader?
Brian O’Connor
Well, I did some school visits. When I was in grade school was when my mom made it as majority leader in the senate. And so we would do some some grade school visits. She was always good about making sure her boys actually got to see things firsthand. And why not include our classes with that. And then, relative to the house, of course, there were always lots of people dropping by. Sometimes they were meetings where we’d say hi, and it wasn’t social so much as a meeting they might have. But oftentimes, there were grand get-togethers. And you’ve, we’ve all heard the stories about getting both the Republicans and the Democrats together for margaritas and beers and, here at the house, and Mexican food. And so we saw a lot of that. My parents were involved with the State Department when I was growing up. And so, oftentimes when a foreign visiting dignitary was, was coming to Phoenix, the State Department would reach out to my folks and see if they’d be willing to entertain some of these folks at the house. And I can remember having the King of Swaziland here in the living room as we’re standing here, in complete garb, with, being feathered by a couple of females with all their ornate garb. And I can remember all kinds of political types coming to the house as well. And so it was, it was interesting.
O’Connor House
So, do you recall, even though you were in grade school, do you recall your mother and father being kind of consensus builders? What role did your mother play other, beyond hostess? How do you think she helped frame policy
for the opportunity
and the role she played?
Brian O’Connor
Well, I think both my parents were of the nature of, just get along with everyone, and be respectful of others and others’ opinions. And I, the brothers never got along, so they certainly tried to be consensus builders amongst the three brothers. But I think it’s as simple as that. They just, they’re they’re sincerely fun, nice people, both my parents. And that went into their business lives and careers and serving in the legislature and, and being open to, to things on, on the bench when they, when she became a judge. No preconceived notions, if you will, came with my parents in large part.
O’Connor House
So your mother said something about, when she baked a cake and she would have one of the boys slice it, whoever did the slicing got the last piece. Does that make, does that ring a bell?
Brian O’Connor
(Laughs)
O’Connor House
So that you would make sure that you would cut them all equally?
Brian O’Connor
That sounds like something she she might have done. I don’t remember that, in particular, but, but she certainly, whenever it was was a birthday for, for any of the boys, we, we always got to choose what cake or dessert we’d like and she would make that, and what dinner we’d like. So it could be anything. I think oftentimes I picked fondue, we would have the, the meat fondue with the oil and all kinds of sauces and, and salsa and, and I would always pick angel food cake. So she was really good about that sort of thing.
O’Connor House
So from the Senate to the appeals court, how, tell us about that, from your perspective. How did that that change–now were you part of, the rumor has it that she was being recruited by the Republican Party to be governor, and that Governor Babbitt got wind of it and offered her a seat on the Court of Appeals. And so that was a story told to us by Leo Corbett recently. That, I guess it was Governor Babbitt’s second term. They were looking for someone to run for governor. And they all got together down at the party headquarters on 16th Street and said it’s got to be Sandra Day O’Connor because she’d be fabulous. So they all, they called her. And then she said, “Let me talk to John.” And then over, over the weekend, it was a Friday, and then over the weekend, Bruce Babbitt called her and said, “There’s a seat coming up on the Court of Appeals, I’d like to nominate you.” And she said, “Let me think about it, talk to John.” And on Monday morning she called, it was Burton Barr, to say she was going to pass on the gubernatorial path. And so we find that quite fascinating. And she did not deny it. She said well, you know, she, I asked her about it later, and she, you know, kind of giggled. But nevertheless, going to the court from the legislature, Brian, how, what were the, you were a little older, right? What, how old were you when she went to the court? More or less?
Brian O’Connor
Well, of course, she started at the Superior Court. So before she was on the Court of appeals, she, she actually, at that point in time, had to run a political campaign, run to be a judge. Which is kind of ironic because she spent a great deal of her career, her later career, going to states across the country, and presenting to their legislators to pass legislation so that we don’t elect judges. So she’d lived that one. But she just thinks judges should be selected on a merit basis. And it’s funny, she had to go through that process herself. But again, as a kid, went, went down and sat in on a few cases. And it just seemed to be in step with what we had grown up knowing already. I mean, she would leave for the day, go downtown not far from my dad and, and try to make it home in time to be sure that we all had dinner together and did things together. So it was sort of business as usual for us in that sense. She was bantered. I do remember, even in those days, friends of my parents would always say a little something in my ear. You know, one day she’ll be president or governor, you know, she was bantered around quite a bit. I do know that when Bush 41 ran for President of the United States, she was high on the list as a vice presidential candidate. So she was on the Court already at that time. And my understanding is she was asked, I don’t know that it was a final ask, but she said no, sort of like saying no, I think to being governor. She felt she had the greatest job there was, as it was, and why would she want to go be governor or vice president when she could stay being a judge?
O’Connor House
So were there any
particular recollections, was, what was it like seeing your mom up on the bench in Arizona in the black robe and, and on the Court of Appeals? Were you ever able to watch any of her proceedings?
Brian O’Connor
Not, I don’t think I saw more than probably one proceeding on the appellate level. You know, they, the appeals court cases are a little drier, typically. And you saw more of the antics in the, in the lower court. But once I was in college and able to see her at the Supreme Court, and then over the years, she was intimidating. I mean, I had to separate myself from being the son, because in the middle of a case, sometimes she’d had a little message sent for me, and a runner would take it from behind the nine justices and over to me where I’d be sitting in her box, and, and it could be about anything. And yet, you could see when she’d ask a question of lawyers, presenting cases, I would be intimidated as well.
O’Connor House
So, on that note, tell us what what it was like when she got the call from President Reagan about being nominated. From your perspective, what took place?
Brian O’Connor
It was chaos the very next day. I actually had been at a large skydiving meet that weekend out in California. And I came back, I’m trying to remember the day, exactly, but soon as I got back, my folks sat us down and shared this information. And a day later, we were down at her chambers, and that was, that was the first formal, televised interview, but, but just trying to leave the house that morning. There were, on Denton Lane where this house stood, movie crews, camera crews, news crews and vans and pickups and satellite hookups all the way down Denton Lane, around the corner up Palo Cristi, past where Hermosa Inn and Lawns are. I mean, there had to be literally in the hundreds, and just trying to get out to go to my summer job at the time. So that’s, that’s when you realized, as a son, what a big deal this was.
O’Connor House
So, so that was July 1981. So now, tell us about traveling to Washington, because I’ve seen photos of you at her Senate confirmation hearings. So tell us about that experience.
Brian O’Connor
You mean, the imposter with, with hair and the mustache? I had not ever been to Washington DC before. And on my flight, coincidentally, I was seated next to Governor Babbitt, who was flying back to testify. So my first trip back there was for the confirmation hearings. So he and I had a very nice chat for the whole flight back. And then I took a cab to the Watergate, my folks had rented a condominium at the Watergate Hotel. And I will always remember, and I think this is probably true for anyone who visits Washington for the first time, particularly coming in in the evening. And you see the monuments lit up, and this, this swell of emotion comes over you, it’s a great feeling of being an American.
But
when when the hearings started, there were lots of side lunches in between hearings. I’ll always remember Senator Ed, Ted Kennedy hosted a really nice lunch in the Senate dining room for her, private dining room. And I had gone just a year prior on Semester at Sea around the world with Senator Kennedy’s daughter. So we had a nice chat about that. But both sides of the aisle were were absolutely enthralled with her. I mean, you could just see it with people.
O’Connor House
That’s wonderful. So the photos and the tapes, the videos I’ve watched show she was flanked by Senator DeConcini and Senator Goldwater. So, as you sat there listening to the Judiciary Committee, do you feel that she, you know, how did that seem, was she treated with great decorum? Did she have hard questions? What was your perception?
Brian O’Connor
Well, I think, I think those procedures, historically, people try to handle them on a, on a dignified basis. Yeah, I remember outside some of those venues, outside of the formal process, I think Barry Goldwater had a few comments for Reverend Falwell, I think it was, at the time. So there were there were some outside commentaries, but within the proceedings, Joe Biden, I don’t recall if now Vice President Biden at that time was chairing the Judicial…[not Grassley] because Grassley, that was his first, first year so he would not have been, but he was very sharp through that process.
It, there were a lot of, lot of tough questions and, and we all sat behind her and, and I’m glad it was her that was on the hot seat and none of us. But she, she handled herself impeccably.
O’Connor House
She was
, after she was on the Court, on the Supreme Court, how did that affect your life?
Brian O’Connor
Well, the first
summer, the, after the original appointment by Reagan of my mom, I was just graduating from college. And I had planned a trip, like a lot of people do when they graduate from college, to go somewhere. And so I was going to Spain. Well, it turned out that my parents, they had, had planned for longer than she had been appointed, a trip to go to Africa on a safari to Kenya with some dear old Arizona friends. And so they kept that plan.
And my folks became the hot ticket in Washington, and, and were invited to every social function imaginable. And one of those functions was a Moroccan-themed party. And, and so, there were two tickets to Morocco, round trip, that were the door prize at that party, and of course, who should win it but my parents. I think everybody yelled in humor, “Oh, it was rigged!” But in any event, my folks used those plane tickets to get to Africa. They said, well, we might as well go to Morocco and see Morocco on the way to Kenya.
And so I subsequently took a boat over from the southern tip of Spain down in Algeciras over to Morocco, jumped on a train in Tangier, went to Rabat where the capital is, and stayed at the embassy residence. In fact, before my folks were even there, I had lunch with the Shah of Iran who was in full, bulletproof vest. Now, this was the son, who was referred to as the Shah. My folks subsequently arrived. We had a very nice evening with the ambassador, and that evening, the ambassador said, well, the king has called and decided he is going to have you be his personal guest for the rest of your stay in Morocco. And that threw my mom in a complete turmoil, she’s like, “Absolutely not, this is a family trip and I’m not here in any official capacity.” And the ambassador said, “Justice O’Connor, I understand, but you have to understand, the king is the spiritual leader as well as, the royal family has been in control hundreds of years, and you’ve just got to go with it.”
Well, the next morning, the motorcade shows up with motorcycle escorts, and off, we get whisked through the town to the king’s plane and off to Marrakech and off to other, you know, exotic locations, Fez, and to gatherings in the desert. And then, there’s my mom seated with the royal family speaking French, because they don’t speak English in Morocco, but it was a French territory or holding years ago, and she was able to speak with all the royal family by speaking French. So she was a, she was a good, accomplished speaker of Spanish, but also could handle herself with French. So in any event, that’s when I realized, well, this is a little different than what I’ve been used to.
O’Connor House
So
how did the boys, the O’Connor sons, feel about your mom’s appointment? You know, can you talk about that, about, collectively, I didn’t, you know, you, Scott and Jay was, were you, Jay’s younger than you are, right, you’re the middle son? And so how did, did you confer amongst yourselves?
Brian O’Connor
It wasn’t our decision, no, we, we have always just been along for the ride. We’re each two years apart. And when I graduated from college, they’re–normally you graduate from college and move away from home. I graduated from college and moved back home into the O’Connor House, and my parents moved away. So for, for a few months until this home and our beloved place on Denton Lane was sold, I stayed there. But we were old enough that it didn’t impact our lives. The younger brother, Jay, he was in college and he ended up going to Washington in the summer and had a couple of great summer experiences. He worked for Senator DeConcini in the Senate for, for a year or so once he graduated. And so really, we all just got to experience things that we otherwise wouldn’t have experienced. And so we were nothing but proud.
O’Connor House
I’m gonna jump around to different parts of her life. You touched on this already, about your mother’s incredible ability to balance her family and her work. So I’m going to ask about that. But you’ve touched on that. I also wanted to ask about what special experiences did you have because of your mother’s career? You talked about Morocco, which is pretty incredible. Anything else you’d like to add to that? Anything stateside here in the country that you got to experience when she was on the court that you thought was a
privilege?
Brian O’Connor
Well, there, there been so many things. And I’ll mention one experience. She’s, she, don’t ever ask her about Bush v. Gore because that’s one case the entire court wishes they never had. You know, they would have rather had another hole in the head than that case. But I, my mom served for years on the board of trustees of Colonial Williamsburg, which, that was a wonderful place that we would get to experience and, and recommend it to anyone. So during the, the presidential election when Bush and Gore were running against each other, we were at a retreat at Colonial Williamsburg. And all of this hanging chad business started showing up on the televisions and the news. And I said–it was just me back there, of the three boys, I was the only boy. And I said, “Mom, look at this, you’re going to end up hearing this case.” And she’d say, “Oh, that’s ridiculous, that’s just nonsense!” I said, “Mark my words, you’re gonna end up hearing this case.” Well, of course, it wasn’t a couple months later that there, it was going in front of the Court. And last minute, I had a friend of mine said, “Brian, you have got to go to this.” And so I did. I caught a red eye, I brought the pal and arrived at the Court that morning. And it was like a riot out front. People, mounted police on horseback, people burning images of the justices, and it looked like a battlefield. We went to the side door, they were expecting me. Got in, got to my mom’s chambers, and you have this nice serenity, quiet chambers, but overlooking her office, you could see the capital and all of this craziness going on. And I felt lucky to be there almost as a distraction for her, because there was so much attention on her. I mean at the time, literally, she was put in the awkward position of really potentially deciding the presidency of the United States. You had a split court, she was the swing vote.
O’Connor House
How did you know it was a split court?
Brian O’Connor
Well, I read the newspapers.
I read the opinions. Sure. This isn’t, this is not a discussion that I had with my mother by any sense, this is Brian’s acquiring knowledge that just, that that’s, those were the known facts at the time.
So it was time. She said, “You need to get in the Court, we’re going to get going here.” And I went on inside. And it was one of those few times, if you are to ask me about something I got to experience that was unique, yes, I sat in on a number of Supreme Court cases, but this one was different. Everybody in the room, there was an electricity in the air and, and it was like a buzz going through your body, and you knew everybody was feeling it. And you’d say, “Oh, well, there’s, there’s the Gores over there.” And, “Well, there’s Jesse Jackson, how did he get in here?” And, “There’s Geraldo Rivera, how did he get in here?” And in the meantime, you’ve got senators and ambassadors yelling at the police outside, “Don’t you know who I am? You’ve got to let me in there.” But it’s a small room.
And so things commenced. And that was a two-hour, normally a court case is one hour, and they allotted two hours for that case. And the gore team would get up and they, they’d argue their case. And you’d sit there as just, I’m not an attorney, just as a lay person, I’d say, “Well, my goodness, they’re absolutely right.” And then the Bush team would get up and argue its case, impeccably, and you’d say, “Oh, well they’re, they’re absolutely right.” And therein lies the dilemma. I mean, truly, just as somebody listening to this, I just said, “How are they going to decide this?” So that afternoon, my friend and I, we jumped in my mom’s little car, and we drove back to, to Chevy Chase where my folks lived. And we sat down and all had a little drink and watched the news, whatever newscaster was trying to figure out, “Well, the Justice moved her head this way when something like, something was said, she must have been thinking this, and we’d all laugh and that sort of thing. And then went to dinner.
And so after dinner, my mother never carries a cell phone that she would use, but this was special. She had to leave the room a couple of times, which is very unusual. We got back to the house. She got back on the computer and fax machine. And at that point I, it was getting late. And I had another early flight the next morning. My dad was out of town. It was just me and my mom. So I went to bed, pushing 10 o’clock at night and she was still up working on that case.
So the next morning at about 5:30 in the morning, we were up having toast and coffee
in the kitchen area. And she said to me, “Brian, we’ve made our decision. And half this country’s going to hate me.” And I said, well, not knowing which decision was reached, “You were in that situation regardless of which way it goes.” And there are no special privileges for us. I mean, she wouldn’t in a million years, never tell me in advance, nor would I ask, but she agonized over over half the country hating her. But you know, just proudly as a son, she just never brought any political baggage to any of her decisions and just used that good old ranch, horse sense. And did the best she could, which is what was so funny to see her recently, when asked about Justice Scalia passing away and whether or not the President, Obama, should be entitled to appoint someone now. And she just used her old common, no nonsense. I mean yes, was she Republican, you know, everybody knows my mom was a Republican, but she said, “You’ve just gotta get on with life,” and that’s what people, I think, I’ve always loved about my mom, is just the no nonsense, no hidden agenda attitude.
O’Connor House
Talk about that a little bit, about her Lazy B, the influence of her growing up on a ranch and her heritage? How do you think that impacted her? I’m talking about her, to her core, how did it impact her in the various roles she held during her career?
Brian O’Connor
Well, there’s been so much written about that including her own book, Lazy B. And I sometimes feel that
, living in a, in a bigger place like Phoenix, sometimes I’ve done my best to, to stay away from too much of the flashy parts of life. But I think we, inevitably, living in a bigger city, get, get caught up in things. And, and it’s the simplicity of that existence on, on the ranch and, and the fact that you don’t need very much to, to have a wonderful life and, to live off the land. And I always felt personally for me, when I would go on a lot of my extended climbing trips, and I’d live out of a backpack for two or three months at a time. You realize how little you need to, to have a meaningful experience. And she, she had a meaningful experience for a very long time at that ranch, and clearly it made her who she is today.
O’Connor House
Is there a favorite story you have about your mother?
Is there a favorite that kind of stands out?
Brian O’Connor
Well, I think I mortified my mother on all too many occasions. They were, this house was situated and, and we would, we would see Camelback Mountain off in the distance. And it was nothing for my mom to allow me, in grade school, to leave on a Friday with a backpack with a buddy, and we would walk to Camelback Mountain and camp out the entire time on Camelback Mountain, coming home on a Sunday evening. Out with open campfire and the whole bit. And if you did that, now you’d be arrested.
But if I had to pick something just, experience-wise, with my mom, it was
, with both my parents, their allowing us to do things that maybe other parents might not have. And in the attitude that, so long as we were prepared–so we were never pushed in a direction of, you should become a lawyer or a doctor or a certain direction–so long as, that we applied ourselves and, and we were prepared, they were okay with it. So, over time, when I told my folks I was going to go skydive off a, base jump off a cliff, or go to Antarctica, or you know, things of that nature, so long as I was prepared, they were okay with it.
I think the only time I finally saw my mom draw the line was in high school. I had secretly been hang gliding. And had a hang glider up in Flagstaff and in North Phoenix. And, and she, she was livid about that. And at that time it was a lot more dangerous sport than it is today. And she said, “That’s it, that’s not going to be allowed. I would rather see you jump out of an airplane.” And I said, “Oh, really?” And with that, it wasn’t a few months later that I had her sign a parental consent form, and at 16 I started my career as a a skydiver. My folks came out for my first jump. And again, they, they embraced it.
So when it comes to my folks, we just did a lot of wonderful things together. And all the car trips in the station wagon, driving to go skiing, those are the best times we could ever have as a family. We skied on Christmas Day for, for many years in a row. I’ve skied in the Alps with my mom and dad, you know, river running with my folks. My parents were very much into the outdoors. You know, trips down the Selway River, the Salmon River, hiking Aravaipa Canyon, backpacking, desert picnics. You know, when, when the end of the world for the city of Phoenix or the Valley was Scottsdale Road and Shea, and after that was wide open desert, and we’d go out there with motorcycles and, and all kinds of, you know, other, baseballs, and, and we put together games, and just, we’d just have nothing but fun. And, and even to this day, we’re now in the spring, we’re entering the spring. Well, I mean, I need to go grab my mom and go look at wildflowers. I mean, she, she every year wants to go see the wildflowers. And it’s just that wanting to be outside and do things that I think rubbed off on me.
O’Connor House
Were you ever in the presence of President Reagan and your mom?
Brian O’Connor
I first met President Reagan, albeit briefly, and, and I believe that was, he was still, I can’t remember quite honestly if he was, it was, for his early campaign, because he previously ran for president it, am I remembering that correctly? And so he came out to Arizona, and of all places, the Paradise Valley Country Club, and my assignment was to entertain his son, which, which I’m trying to remember which son, there might have only been one. But yeah, so spent time with him. But that was the first time I met President Reagan. And, and the second time I ever met President Reagan was the day that my mom was formally being sworn in. We all arrived at the, at the White House. And President Reagan came out and was nothing but smiles. And I said to the President, I said, “Well, I just saw you on TV with Sugar Ray Leonard, Mr. President,” and, and President Reagan said, “Oh, he’s a wonderful man.” And I said, “Well, did he show you any moves?” We started doing a little, little boxing back and forth. And from there it wasn’t soon after that we were in the motorcade with the President and drove the short distance over to the Court for a formal swearing in. And there was a private swearing in that was just my folks and the President, the family. And that was in the chambers. And then there was a second, more formal swearing in front, in front of the public at large. And that’s the time I remember meeting President Reagan.
O’Connor House
And it was Chief Justice Warren Burger that swore her in.
Brian O’Connor
Yes, yes. And it’s interesting, although they, they might have had that one meeting way back when in Arizona, clearly President Reagan had his own troops when he went to Washington. He brought a lot of his California group with him that had been in place so long. And I thought it was so wonderful that when he passed away, it turned out in his will, he had written that the one person he wanted to read from scripture at his own funeral service was none other than my mom. And, and when I think of all the people that were close to him over the years, that the one person he picked to read from the Bible at his own funeral, was my mom, told, told me how much he meant to her. And I think, probably, along with tearing down the Berlin Wall, I’m going to speculate that he, he was as proud of her as that, and that he bonded with her, that, you know, the cowboy to the cowgirl. And that he reached out, after life and made that clear, I, that’s something I’ll always remember about President Reagan.
O’Connor House
I don’t think there’s a way to top that story. That was incredible. Thank you. Thank you for that. Thank you for your time, your memories. It’s just remarkable.
Brian O’Connor
Oh good, I’m glad. I’m glad to do it. Thank you, I’m flattered you even want to listen to any of this.