Sandra Day O'Connor
I'm so glad to welcome today. Congressman Flake, who comes from a little bit north of here originally. You have a family history in this state that goes back close to 1878, was it? Tell me.
Jeff Flake
That's correct. Well, my great-great-grandfather came here, to Arizona, first in 1878. So that makes me a fifth-generation Arizonan.
Sandra Day O'Connor
My grandfather day named Henry Clay Day, interestingly enough. Everybody liked Henry Clay in those days when he was born. So he started the family ranch in that part of the state that was acquired in the Gadsden Purchase from Mexico. The Property south of the Gila River to what is today the Mexican border, and he started ranching. And the closest town of any size would have been Safford, Arizona at the time. Now, who was your ancestor in Arizona?
Jeff Flake
My great-great-grandfather was William Jordan Flake. He came across the plains with Brigham Young when he was six years old.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Is that right? But then he would have ended up in Utah.
Jeff Flake
He did, and then California, and then back to Utah. And then he was assigned, or sent, by Brigham Young to Arizona in 1878.
Sandra Day O'Connor
In 1878. Okay, now my grandfather Day arrived in 1880. So within two years of each other, yours up north and mine over on the New Mexico border, here they arrived.
Jeff Flake
They arrived. He went and looked for a place to settle and found the valley, Silver Creek Valley, tributary to the Little Colorado River, and bought that land from a rancher there, James Stinson. And he was going back up to Utah to get the cattle to pay for it and he ran into Erastus Snow. Erastus Snow was a Mormon apostle who was kind of looking over some of the colonization, if you will. And he asked, "You've started a settlement, I hear?" And William Jordan Flake said, "Yes, I have." And he said, "What have you called it?" He said, "I haven't named it yet." He said, "Call it Snowflake, for the two of us."
Sandra Day O'Connor
For heaven's sake, so that's – I was curious how the name came about.
Jeff Flake
That's how it got its name.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Isn't that interesting.
Jeff Flake
And then other families started to settle, the rancher that sold it to him said, "It can't support more than just a few families with the water here." But they went on, and now they're 4-5,000 people in Snowflake. That's where I grew up.
Sandra Day O'Connor
That's interesting. Well, the area where I grew up still is not well populated. It's in Greenlee County, Arizona, which has remained very small. The major taxpayer there has always been the copper company. They discovered copper up near Clifton and Morenci, and that has been the big economic generator of that part of Arizona. We were cattle ranchers, but that's small potatoes compared to copper production. Copper mining is still being done in eastern Arizona.
Jeff Flake
When I was growing up, the major industry in town was the paper mill. But we were also into, I grew up on a ranch as well. And I've read your book about the Lazy B, and I grew up on the F Bar. My father, and Jake Flake, who a lot of people know, former Speaker of the House here, Jed and Steve, the four brothers had a partnership, F Bar Cattle Company.
Sandra Day O'Connor
So who in your family was first to get hold of political office of any kind?
Jeff Flake
You know, they served on irrigation districts and school boards and everything from way back when. But probably the most noted is Uncle Jake, who was the Speaker of the House. But long before that, James Madison Flake, the son of William Jordan. He and his brother Charles Love Flake were deputized to arrest an outlaw in, I think 1893 it was. And they went to a saloon to arrest this outlaw, they disarmed him or so they thought, he pulled a gun out of his boot and shot my great-uncle Charles Love Flake in the neck and killed him on the spot.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh my word!
Jeff Flake
And shot another bullet through my great-grandfather's ear, leaving him deaf in that ear for the rest of his life. But it was a tough time.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Good Lord. Well we didn't have anything that dramatic down in Greenlee County, thank goodness.
Jeff Flake
Well, I read those stories that you have in that book, and there are similar kind of stories just in northern Arizona on the F Bar.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, I think ranch life teaches you a certain amount of responsibility for keeping things going, being able to do that. It teaches you something about hard work. The people who seemed to do best were the people who were honest, and they could take a work assignment and complete it and do it. They needed to be people who were basically very decent, hard-working people.
Jeff Flake
Right. And I'm amazed at how much they had to do and still found time for civic involvement and civic engagement. James Madison Flake, the one who was shot through the ear, just a couple years later, his wife died, leaving him nine children to raise.
Sandra Day O'Connor
What did he do about that?
Jeff Flake
Well, I read in his journal a while ago that as this happened, and his brother was just shot a few years before, he was taking care of that family as well, he said, "Once again, I must kiss the sod and face a cloudy future." But
Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh my. What a way to put it.
Jeff Flake
He went on and then he managed, not only managed, but he got involved politically as well. He was one of the early advocates of women's suffrage.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh, I like hearing that!
Jeff Flake
And he talks about traveling around the state, to conventions in Prescott and even one in Denver, promoting that cause.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Is that right?
Jeff Flake
And as we know, Arizona was one of the first states to successfully push for that.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, it was fairly early on. It got in there. It got in there fairly early, thank goodness.
Jeff Flake
It did.
Sandra Day O'Connor
What was your first political office that you held?
Jeff Flake
I'm in it right now.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Is this the first time you had run for office?
Jeff Flake
It is. My father was the mayor of Snowflake, it kind of comes by rotation there.
Sandra Day O'Connor
I served in all three branches of Arizona state government. But nobody in my family ever offered themselves for public service until I came along.
Jeff Flake
Is that right?
Sandra Day O'Connor
No, I didn't have a family tradition as you did.
Jeff Flake
Right. I did. I had a lot of good examples. And the hardest work is done locally, certainly on, you know, some of the more thankless jobs around. And my father was on the parks board as well, and had served in various ways.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh it's a good way to start. I think the first thing I did was to serve as a precinct committeeman in my legislative district. And then eventually became the legislative district chairman within my political party and went from there. I was actually privileged to be appointed to be a state senator. Then I turned back to the legal profession in my case, and I wanted to be a judge. And in those days, our judges were elected publicly. They still are in northern Arizona. But when I was in the legislature, I was a sponsor of a constitutional amendment to go to merit selection, for the larger counties and for our appellate courts, the Supreme Court and Court of Appeals. And that measure passed by a narrow margin. But it's been wonderful. It has really provided Arizona with some wonderful judges through the years. It's been a good system. It's kind of a model.
Jeff Flake
Well, I'm fascinated about this house. When was it built, and how was it done?
Sandra Day O'Connor
My husband and I came back to the Phoenix area in 1957. He had been in the military service in the Judge Advocate General's Corps. He got his discharge and we came back Phoenix, and he was immediately hired in a wonderful law firm here. It was Fennemore Craig law firm. And he loved his job. I, on the other hand, could not get a job as a lawyer because the law firms in 1957 wouldn't hire a woman. So I opened a little neighborhood law office with a man I met when I was studying for the Arizona Bar, Tom Tobin. And that's what got me into the legal profession in Arizona.
John was wonderful, and he loved working in the law firm he was in, so that gave us our start. And we wanted to build a house. And we bought property in a an undeveloped, desert-type area just immediately north of the Arizona Canal as it came through the Phoenix area. And we wanted to build an adobe house. And we found a man in Scottsdale, his name was George Ellis, who had built some adobe houses. And we went to see him and, "Say, how did you get those adobes made, and how could we…?" And he put us in touch with a little business that made adobes out of the Salt River bed in Arizona. And we arranged to have some sun-dried adobes, that's what we wanted, made.
And then we found a starving young architect, because we didn't have any money, and he designed a house with the sun-dried adobes, and we found a wonderful builder who was willing to do it. And we put this house up on that land that we purchased. And I absolutely loved it. There's something about sun-dried adobes that belong to the land and to this area. And I just, I like touching them. And my husband and I scraped every joint, and we painted the walls with adobe mud. And it was wonderful, we loved it.
Jeff Flake
Oh, that's great.
Sandra Day O'Connor
My husband and I really enjoyed living in this house, and our three sons were born and grew up in this area. And it was wonderful. And I used this house when I was in the state legislature. I was chosen by my Republican colleagues to be the majority leader of the State Senate. It turned out that was the first time in the United States that a woman had ever held a leadership position in a legislative body.
Jeff Flake
You have a history of firsts.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Which was amazing. But the house served a purpose, because I thought it was very important to get to know, on a personal level, all my Republican colleagues and all the Democratic members of the Senate. So I'd make chalupas or something, some kind of Mexican food and get a bunch of beer and soft drinks, or whatever it took. And we'd come out to this house and sit around at dinner time and have a wonderful time. We'd get acquainted and just have a casual evening together and get to know each other better. What I learned from that experience was that there were times in the legislature where votes were very close and very hard to get on some issues. And it became important to have bipartisan support on many issues. And you can do that, I found, if you're friends and have friends on both sides of the aisle. How do you ever get acquainted with all the colleagues you have? You have many more in the House of Representatives. So how does that work?
Jeff Flake
It is more difficult now. I think when people stayed in DC on the weekends it was easier to get together. Now you have to do things like, you know, there's the House gym. It's a, sometimes it's put forward as some palatial facility and big perk in Congress. It's more like an old Elks Lodge.
Sandra Day O'Connor
I know. But you don't have enough time to be in the gym.
Jeff Flake
In the evenings, a lot of people are down there to either play pickup games and basketball or or go out on the Mall. And I can tell you, down there, whether you're Republican or Democrat, it doesn't matter.
Sandra Day O'Connor
It doesn't. That's why something like that is so important.
Jeff Flake
It certainly helps when members get together, and I've been fortunate to have that, the House gym with the annual baseball game that we play, and charity basketball games and sports as a way. But other members find other ways to to reach across the aisle.
Sandra Day O'Connor
But it's terribly important to do.
Jeff Flake
It is.
Sandra Day O'Connor
And you need to be friends regardless of party.
Jeff Flake
You bet, you bet. And that's, I think, been the tradition certainly in Arizona.
Sandra Day O'Connor
It was. It became the tradition here, and I hope it still is.
Jeff Flake
Yeah. And you have examples like the Arizona Wilderness Act that was passed in the 80s with Barry Goldwater and Mo Udall and John McCain and others, and environmental groups and industry folks and just about everybody else, just sitting around and saying, "Hey, we're going to strike this deal that's going to protect the Grand Canyon, it's going to set aside lands for this and that," and they did it. And then that's Arizona's best tradition.
Sandra Day O'Connor
We had two delightful members of Congress that I remember well, one was John Rhodes, and the other was Mo Udall. And they were fabulous.
Jeff Flake
Right. I've served with Mo's son, Mark Udall, in the House, and now he's in the Senate, and I hope to serve with him again
Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes. Well there's several Udalls in service in Congress.
Jeff Flake
Right. Stewart's son as well.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Two, at least.
Jeff Flake
Yes, two Udalls and then some other cousins as well. And I think we were cousins way back when, with the Udalls.
Mo Udall (video clip)
Chambers tells the story about going over there to the trial lawsuit in that same court in the same situation. And everybody was Mormon on the jury, the judge was Mormon, the other lawyer was Mormon. And his client was named Johnson. And he said the, they asked the question, "Well, brother so-and-so, were you there with sister so-and-so when brother so-and-so said something in the presence of Mr. Johnson?" (crowd laughs) This client, and he said, "I got the brother treatment and I never went back."
Barry Goldwater (video clip)
There was one time five Udalls who were judges in the state of Arizona. Can you imagine that? Five Udalls. And I couldn't even get a parking ticket fixed.
Sandra Day O'Connor
That family has certainly produced lots of
members of Congress.
Jeff Flake
They have. And I can tell you that kind of bipartisan atmosphere and spirit was passed on from Mo to his son and his cousin. And I enjoy working with the Udalls.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well that's good. Well, we had all kinds of events here at the O'Connor House through the years to help get good policies adopted in our legislature and, once in a while, in Congress.
Jeff Flake
And the decision, what went into the decision to move it here?
Sandra Day O'Connor
I had gone on the Supreme Court in 1981, appointed by President Reagan, when he was campaigning for the presidency, he would say on occasion, "Now if I'm elected, I'd like to put a qualified woman on the Supreme Court.
"
Ronald Reagan (video clip)
I will send to the Senate the nomination of Judge Sandra Day O'Connor of Arizona Court of Appeals for confirmation as an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court. … I have long believed that the time has come for the highest court in our land to include not only distinguished men, but distinguished women as well.
Sandra Day O'Connor
There had never been a woman on the Supreme Court, as you know. In fact it took 191 years to get one there. Justice Potter Stewart announced his retirement. And that meant that there had to be someone appointed to fill that vacancy on the Court. President Reagan asked his then-Attorney General William French Smith to give him some names of some women judges around the country. There weren't many, very few. And so the list was pretty short. Even including the Democrats, it was pretty short. And somehow President Reagan focused on an Arizona woman, and that's how it happened. But I certainly did not have the experience that would have assured him it would be okay.
Jeff Flake
I think everybody recognizes that was a wonderful move.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh I know, but I felt hesitant to say yes, to tell you the truth.
Jeff Flake
You had asked earlier what brought me to the decision to run for office. I had graduated from high school in Snowflake and went to school for a semester at Eastern Arizona [College] there down in Thatcher, in your neck of the woods,
Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh yes, absolutely. Yes.
Jeff Flake
Did that for a semester, then did a Mormon mission in South Africa and Zimbabwe.
Sandra Day O'Connor
How interesting. You were there for a year?
Jeff Flake
I was. A year, well actually two years on the mission, and then back to Brigham Young University, and met my wife. And we then moved, after college, to Washington, DC, where I did an internship for Denis DeConcini.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh, how wonderful.
Jeff Flake
And it was wonderful, we still have a great relationship.
Sandra Day O'Connor
That's good.
Jeff Flake
And that was my start in Washington, as a Republican working for a Democrat. Well,
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, it's fine, it works out. You need that exchange.
Jeff Flake
That's how I've always felt. He's a good man, and we had a good time.
Sandra Day O'Connor
I thought Senator DeConcini was terrific. I knew him fairly well, and he did a good job, I think, for Arizona.
Jeff Flake
We've certainly enjoyed that association. After a couple of years in Washington, we moved to the southern African country of Namibia.
Sandra Day O'Connor
You did?
Jeff Flake
And I was in Namibia with my wife and myself and our oldest child, who was then a year-and-a-half old.
Sandra Day O'Connor
How amazing.
Jeff Flake
It was the year that Namibia gained its independence from South Africa. It was fascinating there, particularly, you know, coming from a country where we kind of take voting for granted. They were having their first election.
Sandra Day O'Connor
And were they thrilled to be doing it?
Jeff Flake
They were. And the turnout was, I think, above 98%.
Sandra Day O'Connor
And of course, South Africa made massive changes since you served there, didn't it?
Jeff Flake
Yes. Very much so. In fact, while I was serving there, Nelson Mandela was still in prison, and still considered a terrorist by most people there. And while I was in Namibia is when he was released from prison in South Africa, and of course went on to be one of the most respected and beloved leaders in southern Africa and the world.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Now, I've met two people in my rather long life who had incredible charisma. When you met them, you were riveted by their presence for some reason. One, believe it or not, was Eleanor Roosevelt. And the other was Nelson Mandela. And I was privileged to meet both of them. And I just remember how impressive they were when I saw them in and was in their presence.
Jeff Flake
He's certainly one of my all time heroes in politics, Nelson Mandela.
Sandra Day O'Connor
He served at least 25 years in that prison.
Jeff Flake
He did.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Which I visited, it's on a little island off of Cape Town.
Jeff Flake
I've been there myself, Robben Island.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes.
Jeff Flake
And to come out of that experience without any animus and to basically forgive the guards who treated you so poorly. That ought to be a lesson to anyone.
Sandra Day O'Connor
It's incredible. Yes, I think so, too. Truly remarkable. But he lived long enough to see that incredible change in his country.
Jeff Flake
Right. After DC for a couple more years, my wife and myself and we had two children at the time, moved back to Arizona. And I ran the Goldwater Institute for seven years, and just enjoyed that immensely. And I met one of my great heroes in politics, Margaret Thatcher.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh yes, she's terrific. She was fabulous.
Jeff Flake
And I had actually been in London on the way back from Namibia, and was able to watch the "Question Day" or "Question Time," when the government fields questions from the opposition, and she was just incredible.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes, isn't that fun? She was great. I was privileged to meet her, too, and thought she was wonderful. And I told her that if she'd come back to the US and settle here, I'm sure she would win elective office in a heartbeat. She was very popular in our country, wasn't she?
Jeff Flake
She was. But ultimately, I decided to run for this office, and I joke only half jokingly that, better than milking cows like I grew up doing.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well it's hard to milk a cow, isn't it? People laugh, but I had to milk once in a while, and I wasn't very good. If you don't get every drop, the cow stops producing that much milk. So it's hard to milk cows. And you're right, it's better to hold public office than milk a cow.
Jeff Flake
(Laughs) I'm still getting used to showering in the morning rather than the evening. But all in all, it was a good trade.
Sandra Day O'Connor
That's great. Well, I think we're both lucky to be from Arizona, as a state.
Jeff Flake
We are.
Sandra Day O'Connor
I really love this state. And I know you do, too. And to help celebrate its 100th birthday is a great privilege.
Jeff Flake
It is, and we owe a lot to those who came before us and who settled this great state and did so much to make it what it is.
Sandra Day O'Connor
We do. And we have one issue that I think we have to continue to think about for the future, in my opinion, and that's water. We have every drop of water that we will ever have in the world. It's already here, no more is coming. And how do we protect it and maintain enough that we can all survive in this rapidly expanding population?
Jeff Flake
Right. Well, there, we're fortunate that folks for a long time have been thinking about that.
Sandra Day O'Connor
I know, but we can't stop thinking about it.
Jeff Flake
Exactly. But I don't know that anybody envisioned, you know, six and a half million people here at this point, you know, and being a place where a lot more people will want to come, and we have to plan for that, you're right.
Sandra Day O'Connor
The other thing Arizona has a lot of is sun, and I hope that the production of solar energy will be something Arizona can help with in the future.
Jeff Flake
I don't know how it can't, with this amount of sun.
Sandra Day O'Connor
I don't either.
Jeff Flake
Both of us growing up either in a small town or out on a ranch recognize that, you know, in a city council in a small town, rarely are political parties mentioned. It's certainly an atmosphere where everyone works together, whether it's on a school board or an Irrigation District Board or whatever else, you've got to work together.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well I hope we can build it at the federal level. That's what I see a little bit missing at present, and I hope that can change.
Jeff Flake
So do I. Sometimes, the 24-hour news cycle kind of feeds the the partisanship, and everybody kind of plays a role for the camera.
Sandra Day O'Connor
I know.
Jeff Flake
Gratefully, it's better when you shut off the cameras and go home at night or go out and jog with your companions in Congress, Democrat or Republican. The partisanship tends to turn itself off at that point.
Sandra Day O'Connor
It does.
Jeff Flake
We need we need more of that, though.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, I hope that your experience in Arizona's less populated regions, and mine, can help benefit Arizona for the future.
Jeff Flake
Well, thank you. This has been lovely to be here. And I've just enjoyed this immensely, it's been an honor to be here.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well I have, too. It's been a real privilege today to get to talk to you in my old house that my husband and I built in 1957. I'm so glad you could be here and talk to me today. I really enjoyed it.
Jeff Flake
Well, thank you. It's been an honor for me. Thank you for having me.