Unknown Speaker
In 1981, Sandra Day O'Connor made history, she became the first woman to serve on the Supreme Court. But that honor is actually one milestone in a long and accomplished career dedicated to the law. In 2003, Justice O'Connor talked about her work and life with NBC correspondent Pete Williams. taped in front of a live audience at the Kentucky Center for the Arts, great conversations, just to Sandra Day O'Connor and Pete Williams.
Pete Williams
And then we begin with a passage that's in both of your books the lazy be and the majesty of the law. It's from one of your professors at Stanford, the great novelist, historian and biographer Wallace Stegner, you know the passage I'm referring to would you read that to us
Sandra Day O'Connor
Right now let me find out I should have marked all this. Yes, here it is. Wallace Stegner was my favorite American author still is but he's passed away. And this is what he wrote, among other things about the West. You know, he grew up in Saskatchewan, Canada, and then moved to the west and he loved the West. He said, There is something about living in big empty space where people are few and distant, under a great sky that is alternately serene and furious. exposed to son from four in the morning till nine at night, and to a wind that never seems to rest. There is something about exposure to that big country that not only tells an individual how small he is, but steadily tells him who he is.
Pete Williams
When you grew up in just such a place. Tell us a little bit about the ladies. Be tell us first of all why is it called the lazy be this doesn't sound like there was anything lazy about it.
Sandra Day O'Connor
It was a brand when my grandfather day decided to start ranching in the then territory of New Mexico. He went to Mexico to buy a herd of cattle to put on the land and the herd that he bought have the lazy be brand on the left hip. Now a brand is lazy if it's lying down on its side so this is a be lying down the letter like that the letter B and so lazy be the ranch became and remained and the brand remained that as well.
Pete Williams
And what kind of country was it?
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, it's high open desert country, south of the Hilo river on the border of Arizona, New Mexico and the rainfall their averages 10 inches a year or less. So it isn't much They are semi arid mesas they're ringed by some volcanic mountains to the south and to the west. And they were formed by ancient volcanic eruptions. The country is very arid, and virtually everything there can hurt you in some ways spines and thorns will puncture you. Ants or scorpions will bite you snakes are frequently found
Pete Williams
you speak from experience about i doing
Sandra Day O'Connor
all those things and he died. Do you really didn't want to fall off your horse because you might land on a cactus or an ant Damn. So get paid to stay on board if you could?
Pete Williams
Well, the prospect of being bitten by a scorpion must make the Supreme Court seem fairly benign.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, you'd be surprised I'm not so sure but You know, I formed a habit in Arizona years ago that before I put on my shoes, I'd shake them out in case there was a scorpion sometimes they were they seem to like to hide and shoes and dark closets. Do you still do that to this day I will find myself shaking out my shoes.
Pete Williams
Well now you obviously are very fond of this. This these lines by Wallace Stegner about how living in that big country tells an individual how small he is, but steadily tells him who he is. What did it tell you about who you are?
Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh, I don't know. It told me that I was a branch girl. And that I'd better help try to make that go up and out there. I don't think that ever told me that a cowgirl was going to be a member of the Supreme Court.
Pete Williams
You you describe trying to make it a go of a cattle ranch in this very arid climate. When you were growing up on the ranch. Did you ever think you were having a hard life?
Sandra Day O'Connor
No. I didn't think so I'm sure it was from my parents perspective. But from my perspective, it was just very interesting and a lot of fun. I loved being there. And I used to call it my ranch and my cattle. And every day was some kind of an adventure. You never knew what you'd be doing. And I went out frequently with my father around the branch sometimes with the Cowboys. During roundups, I'd ride sometimes with the roundup crew and every day was adventurous. You never know what you'd see or do
Pete Williams
outside of your own family. The earliest people you ever knew were cowboys.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh, yes, my early babysitters were these tough old cowboys and Levi's and dirty clothes and unshaven and there they'd be talking baby, talk to this little child out there.
Pete Williams
Well, you right lovingly of your father But you say that he always had to have the last word in any argument, and that you and your brother and sister picked up that same trait. Do you still have it?
Sandra Day O'Connor
I'm afraid so I must be a day trade. But he, he was so intelligent. He didn't have a college education. He wanted to very much. He had hoped go to Stanford actually, and his father died at about the time he was ready to go. And so he was sent to the ranch to try to keep things going there until the estate could be settled. He never intended to remain on the ranch all his life. But he did. And he loved knowledge. He read widely. He and my mother had a very good library, and they subscribe to newspapers and magazines. And they were just interested in everything and he wanted to know how everything worked and He could fix anything living out on the ranch. We didn't have a telephone and you couldn't call anybody to repair the car. If it broke down, you had to do it yourself. If some animal was sick, he had to be the veterinarian. Indeed, if one of us got sick, or if a cowboy fell and broke a bone, he pretty much have to set that there were no doctors anywhere around. He really had to be everything. He built the house. He put up windmills. When we eventually got some kind of a party telephone line. He had to put up our telephone poles for
Pete Williams
10 miles holes and the wires Yes. Now, he was obviously a strong man, but not the strong silent type.
Sandra Day O'Connor
No, my goodness. He talked a lot. I think maybe it was because we didn't see so many people out there. And if he ever got a visitor It was not Stop talking. When john and i would come to the ranch, even when we had to get up and go the bathroom my father would follow us follow us and and keep talking.
Pete Williams
But this must have created a new and interesting conversation and ideas.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes, very much so. And I remember the years when I was at Stanford and being exposed to the professor's there, I was studying economics and some of the economic theories were pretty antithetical to my father's point of view. And we would have very long discussions you might even say arguments around the dinner table over Keynesian economic theory,
Pete Williams
as you began to think about being an adult and having your own life and your own career, what to use the cliche What did you want to be when you grew up?
Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh, I wanted to be a cattle rancher. And one of my best friends I had to go to school in El Paso, Texas, because there wasn't a school near the lazy D and I live with great Parents in El Paso and one of my good friends there was the daughter about my age of a cattlemen. And the two of us used to plan how we were each going to have ranches and what we would do and how we manage it. Now we'd get together and continue our friendship.
Pete Williams
Did you think about your brand?
Sandra Day O'Connor
No. I eventually had a brand but it wasn't a very good one. You know those simple early brands all got taken so you had to do something else
Pete Williams
Flying rocking horse V's–
Sandra Day O'Connor
Right. Terrible.
Pete Williams
Well, what do you think you learned from the ranch that stayed with you?
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, I will say this that verbal skills were not high on the list of what was needed out on the record. I think probably qualities of dependability, hard work. Honesty was terribly important out there. And a sense of humor. was pretty important, too.
And certainly it–
Pete Williams
Why was a sense of humor important?
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, because the life was pretty tough and you saw each other constantly. And if you could have a few laughs along the way, it always made things better.
Unknown Speaker
You also talk throughout the book about your father's demanding that every job no matter how small be done, well,
Sandra Day O'Connor
I know up just whatever it was, and we never expected praise for any job we did. But if it wasn't done properly, we'd hear about it.
Pete Williams
So So pray–
Sandra Day O'Connor
If you heard nothing, It was okay.
Unknown Speaker
Well, what got you interested in the law and made you change your mind about ranching?
Sandra Day O'Connor
I took a class as an undergraduate at Stanford, from a man who was on law schools, faculty, but he taught an undergraduate school on law. He was so inspiring. I just thought he was was wonderful. He was the most inspiring teacher I ever had. And because of him, I decided to apply for law school admission. I really didn't know if I would finish law school I applied for early admission as my senior year. And I didn't know where that might lead.
Pete Williams
Were there many women in your law school class?
Sandra Day O'Connor
No. When I went to law school at Stanford, we were about five on the law school. About 1% of the law students at that time were women, nationwide. And last year, more than 50% of the law students were women. Isn't that incredible?
Pete Williams
Did–did anyone– [applause]
Unknown Speaker
Did anyone ever say to you at Stanford, you know this. I don't know why you're bothering to go to law school. You're a woman.
Sandra Day O'Connor
I didn't hear that much. Probably. There were some who thought that Most of my classmates were men who had served in the military in World War Two. And some of them had seen pretty hard duty and had spent a good many years in the service during World War Two. They've gotten out. They were home. They many of them had gotten married. And they were very anxious to learn how to earn a living. They wanted to they were very serious about law school, they cared about it, they wanted to get out and go to work
Pete Williams
was probably a good atmosphere for you then. And which
Sandra Day O'Connor
I think was I mean, they were terrific, but it's not your typical law school class. We I was much younger, certainly.
Unknown Speaker
And then came your graduation. And here you had a Stanford Law School degree, which was a big deal, right? shiny. What position where you offered at the law firm that you applied to?
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, I couldn't get an interview. With a law firm here, we're always notices on the place. board at Stanford Law School with notes from the different major law firms and California asking Stanford Law graduates to apply to them for interviews for jobs. And I made a number of calls and I never got a call back, never got an interview. And I finally asked a young woman I knew at Stanford whose father was a partner in one of the big firms to see if her father could get an interview for me. And he did. I went to Los Angeles and had an interview with a partner in this major law firm. And we chatted for a while and then finally said, well mistake, how do you type and I said, Well, just average I'm, I'm not particularly skilled, but okay. And he said, Well, if you type well enough, I might be able to get you a job here as a legal secretary. But mistake we never hired a woman as a lawyer. And I don't see the day when we will.
Pete Williams
What was your reaction? Were you surprised when you were
Sandra Day O'Connor
young? I was surprised. I am. I must say, I think I must have been terribly naive. I never for one moment in law school thought about not being able to get a job. Everyone was getting jobs when they got out. And it never occurred to me that I wouldn't. And I was very surprised, actually.
Unknown Speaker
So what did you end up doing that after you discovered that you probably weren't
Sandra Day O'Connor
met john and we had gotten engaged, we were going to be married. And he was a year behind me in law school. And we plan to probably eat after our marriage. One of us had to get a job and work and that was me. we'd spent the last money that we had on honeymoon so it was pretty necessary that a job they found and I talked my way into the district attorney's office in San Mateo County, California,
Pete Williams
which is right near Stanford.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes. And it was a job in the public sector, which in those days was the sector that had begun to hire a few women lawyers.
Pete Williams
And what did that job pay?
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, nothing at first. In fact, I get it, I had to promise that I, they didn't have a vacancy and didn't have an office. And I said, Well, I could work for a while for nothing. And I'd be happy to sit in your secretary's office if she'll have me. And that was kind of the deal we struck. But luckily, I hadn't been there along when the district attorney was made the county judge and my supervisor was made the district attorney and that open slots and I got a bonafide position and my own office and a paycheck and a paycheck was great.
Unknown Speaker
By the way, what is it about Stanford for members of the court now when there is undergraduate You and the Chief Justice went to law school there. Yes. What What is it about Stanford's? just coincidence?
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, no, that's cool.
Pete Williams
I agree. I went there to I had to ask that question.
Unknown Speaker
You mentioned a moment ago that the difference between 1% of the students being women when you were in law school and now 50%, obviously, there have been plus 50. Plus, obviously, opportunities for women have changed then but throughout the law, how much have they changed?
Sandra Day O'Connor
dramatically. I think in 1981, something like five to 7% of judges in our country are women. Now it's between 15 and 20%. So that number has greatly increased. Today, law firms actively recruit women law graduates I think most jobs are open today. And I like to think that the appointment of a woman to the Supreme Court opened a lot of those doors.
Unknown Speaker
Is there any question about that? I don't think so. No. Well, let's talk about your coming onto the court. Did it occur to you when you got that call? And by the way, you quote a former Justice of the Supreme Court that likens the nomination to the Supreme Court as a phenomenon of the weather.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh, lewis powell, used to say that being nominated for service on the US Supreme Court was a little like being struck by lightning in both the suddenness and the improbability
Pete Williams
was that true for you?
Sandra Day O'Connor
Very much so
Pete Williams
Suddenness?
Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes, and improbability. I never expected to be asked to serve on the court and even after I had been asked by the then Attorney General William French Smith To go to Washington to meet with some of the President's advisors and indeed with the President himself, I got on the airplane that afternoon to return to Phoenix. And I breathed a big sigh of relief and said to myself, well, that was so interesting that thank goodness, I have don't have to go back there and do that job. Because I was convinced I wouldn't be asked and I thought it would be very difficult if I were difficult, in what way? What's hard a hard job? Very hard job demanding.
Unknown Speaker
Did it occur to you right from the beginning that your nomination would get so much attention as the first woman on the Supreme Court?
Sandra Day O'Connor
Now it should have it's a little like, not finding job offers. I don't think I appreciated the extent of media attention, it would Garner
Unknown Speaker
What was it like? before actually, before you get onto the court, I'm interested in a couple of things that you cite in your majesty of the law book, some With the correspondents, you've got, you quote, an anonymous letter writer who said, Who sent you a note that said, and I quote, back to your kitchen and home female.
Pete Williams
Was there much of that?
Sandra Day O'Connor
I had so much mail. after my arrival at the Supreme Court, it would come in in huge bags full like that every day several and more than we could open. And we were trying so hard in the office to open the mail and even to try to respond if the response was indicated. And most of the mail was very positive. I heard from many women who would say things like this, I cannot begin to describe with what the light I viewed the surprising headlines in Chicago's newspapers the day of your nomination. I actually stood there with my mouth hanging open, and an idiotic grin on my face feeling overwhelmingly euphoric, and friends. And then a few of the other kind back to your kitchen on home female, this is a job for a man and only he can make the rough decisions, take care of your grandchildren and husband signed a senior citizen.
Unknown Speaker
The the the orientation process for an incoming Supreme Court Justice, what is it like?
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, actually there isn't any. I took my the Senate voted like honor Thursday or Friday, and I was sworn in the following Monday. And after the ceremony, we went back to the conference room and started work on the summers. whole list of petitions for search a very, there was no intervening break and there is no how to do it, man. Four supreme court justices.
Unknown Speaker
So I'm trying to find out what it must have felt like at the time to be a an incoming freshman Supreme Court Justice with no one telling you what to do. And and you've said before, lots of traditions on the court are there so
Sandra Day O'Connor
many I mean over 200 years of doing things, certain ways, none of it written down. And I obviously stepped on a good many toes in the process of finding my way there. But people my colleagues, were very glad to have a ninth member of the court to serve with only eight members means the risk of a good many four to four decisions, because in those days, the court was very often divided five to four, it is sometimes today too, but in those days particularly, and at my very first conference on argued cases when we talked about the cases, the first case this It went from the chief justice on down by seniority. And it came to me the junior justice board for very first case. So it was very intense time. And literally the weekend before I was sworn in, I went into what was to be my chambers and stacked on the floor in that office where the secretaries have their desk were piles of the petitions for search are very related over the over several thousand of them the petition saying please take my case. This is the issue of federal law presented this is why you should take it often the petitions are fairly long, and often there are responses to the petitions. They were just all stacked up on the floor. No one in my chambers had ever worked in a Supreme Court chamber and We didn't know how it was handled. We didn't know when the conference net how it how they were discussed, what, what did you do with them? Did you put them in a notebook in order where they discussed? How did we deal with it at the discussion? I knew nothing. And it was very hard. My law clerks and I just tried to research over that weekend, how all the other chambers did their work,
Pete Williams
and none of those law clerks had been at the Supreme Court?
Sandra Day O'Connor
No, and we took notes and then we got back together to try to figure out what to do.
Unknown Speaker
So you have all of that all of that pressure. Plus, at the same time, the pressure of being the first woman on the US Yeah.
Sandra Day O'Connor
How did you get through it? Well, I don't know.
Unknown Speaker
you cite a little poem in June in majesty of the law. It was of course, Potter Stewart's decision to step down. opened up an appointment for President Reagan. What is the little poem?
Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes, there was a poem written about justice Potter Stewart, who had decided to retire and it was his vacancy, which I ended up filling. Here's the poem A toast to Potter steward. His chivalry can't be beat the first supreme court justice to give a lady his seat.
Unknown Speaker
And he literally did because in the conference room is on the back of the chairs are your names? Correct?
Sandra Day O'Connor
Not my conference room, but on the bench behind the court. But that chair is then if a justice retires, all of the other justices contribute to buy it, and it is then given to the retiring justice.
Unknown Speaker
Now, is it true that in in anticipation of your arrival, the traditional court ended the practice of referring to people as Mr. Justice so and so
Sandra Day O'Connor
actually, the Court made that decision before my nomination. I don't Whether there was some anticipation that they could have a woman there, perhaps there was. But before I arrived, the justice is decided to drop the Mr. Justice. It was taken off the names where the cars parked, and it was taken off the brass plates on the doors. And I became just justice. so and so.
Pete Williams
So that was one thing you didn't have to–
Sandra Day O'Connor
I didn't have to cope with that.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. You also say something in your book that is hard to believe about what happens when you and your husband john, were somewhere and people here that Justice O'Connor is present. What is that?
Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh, well, for some time after I was on the court, we might be in a gathering or restaurant or an anything. And if somebody heard that Justice O'Connor was there, somebody would walk up to john and say how glad they were to meet the justice.
Pete Williams
It doesn't happen anymore. Does it?
Sandra Day O'Connor
I know
Pete Williams
What do you say, though when people say it's great having a woman on the Supreme Court, but when they asked about whether there is a woman's perspective on the bench or whether women decide cases differently,
Sandra Day O'Connor
I'm asked that so often actually. So you're not the first ass. I'm not hurt by that. And I like to say what another woman judge from Minnesota had to say, which is that at the end of the day, a wise old woman and a wise old man will reach the same decision. And I think that's true. I think that my colleague, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, basically agrees with that as well. Now, what is true is that every member of the court on any appellate court where there are only a few people participating, every member brings with them a line. Time of background and experience. And we hope that the experiences are not the same. And indeed they aren't. It's good for an appellate court if people come with different backgrounds and experiences. But that being said, I think at the end of the day, we hope we reach a consensus on a sensible answer to the issue. And I think that's generally true.
Pete Williams
By the way, you mentioned, Justice Ginsburg Did, did her arrival on the court change things for you, you are no longer
Sandra Day O'Connor
ever. There had been such intense media coverage of everything I did, and virtually on every case, somehow there would be a focus on it. And that's stressful. I don't think anyone likes to live their life that way. And the minute Justice Ginsburg came, the second woman that changed and then both of them became just two of the nine justices. That's the way it should be. And thankfully, that's the way it is.
Pete Williams
You mentioned the the focus from the often ill behave news media about your presence on the court. But was it was it Did you find that in the legal community as well? Were they analyzing how the first woman supreme court justice was deciding cases?
Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh, I suppose so. But you don't hear as much from them you you see it in the press rather than the legal profession as such, because we don't have all that much feedback from them, except through official means and briefs and so long.
Pete Williams
Now, you mentioned that term that is familiar one to people who understand the law but petitions for search around it, which is how you ask the Supreme Court to take that's
Sandra Day O'Connor
a great term. Everybody needs to know that thank you know, some attention for search America.
Pete Williams
Many people are surprised to learn that in most cases, there is no right to appeal to the US Supreme Court.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh right. Many are called but You are chosen when I they year that I went to the court in 1981. We had about 4000 petitions that year. And out of that number, we took about 150 to 60 cases. last term, we had 7500 petitions Morales, and took a little less than 100. Now, we have not made a conscious decision to take fewer. But it just has worked out that way. In part because since I've been at the court in the 19, late 1980s. Congress made our mandatory appellate jurisdiction discretionary as well. And that had been about 15% of our docket,
Pete Williams
You had to take all anti-trust cases, for example?
Sandra Day O'Connor
No, we didn't. But certain categories of fields we had to take.
Pete Williams
Now. That's a lot of paperwork to read.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh, there is so much reading of the
Unknown Speaker
court. roughly how many pages a day would you say a justice read
Sandra Day O'Connor
on the average during the term counting all a petition? Sir Sir, very all the responses, all the briefs and all the correspondence, it's about it averages 1500 pages a day. And that's a lot of homework.
Pete Williams
It is indeed. And that doesn't change for you doesn't know
Sandra Day O'Connor
it doesn't change no matter how experienced now, in fact, it's more because the number of petitions have grown.
Unknown Speaker
Now, if you take so few cases, how do you decide which cases to take what what criteria in general,
Sandra Day O'Connor
we have no fixed criteria. It's a judgment call that each one has to make. And I think one of the most remarkable things about our court is that every single one of these thousands of petitions is reviewed by every one of the justices. We don't have a committee that decides what to take. We don't assign it to staff. We each individually have to make a judgment. Is this a case? I'm going to vote to review or not? And it was William Howard Taft, and you vote on every case, every window. No, I'm back to tell you how we do it. When william howard haft was chief justice. He really cared about judicial administration. He was amazing. He'd been a judge in Ohio, and he liked judging. And so he was the one who went to Congress and said, you have to give this court discretion about what cases to take until that time. We didn't have it. And the court was drowning in cases. And the Judiciary Committee said, but how do we know? The court will take the cases it should, maybe you just rather go play golf, he kind of liked play golf. And he said, Well, this is what we'll do. If you will give us that discretion, then we will agree that it only takes the vote of four of the nine justices to accept a case for review, not a majority. We've never put the rule of four in a written rule, but we follow it to this day, Congress thought it was a reasonable proposal, and it was, and to this day, if at least four of us think we should take a case. That's enough. We get these thousands of petitions any one of us can ask that a particular petition be put on a discussion list at the conference. If none of the nine think it even merits discussing, it is denied. Without further ado, we end up discussing maybe about 15% of them. And we actually talked about it. How many of you think we should take this we go around the table,
Unknown Speaker
and it has to take at least 40. And then, of course, five to win once the quarter?
Sandra Day O'Connor
Here it if you're to have a holding of the court, you need at least five,
Unknown Speaker
do you, you so you're totally reactive. You can't be a Supreme Court justice and say, I want to take that case there. I hope we get to decide that issue.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, as a legislator, I was perfectly free to look around me and say now there is a problem that we ought to be addressing in this legislature. That's something I'm concerned about, and I'm going to do something about it as a judge and as a member of the court on which I said, we can't do that. We select from the petitions that are actually filed. And we can't go in and say, gee, this is a problem we ought to solve for the country. We pick from the petitions that are filed. And it's a judgment call we make whether to take the case or not, we consider the importance of the issue of federal law that's raised. And the extent to which the lower courts, federal or state have reached conflicting holdings on that issue. And if there are conflicting holdings out there, then we're apt to eventually take a case to resolve that doesn't have to be the first one presenting the issue. If it's a genuine issue, it will crop up again. But we do find very important the extent of conflicting holdings in the lower courts.
Unknown Speaker
One question about how the court works. The court has recently a couple of occasions made audio tapes of the oral arguments available and they seem to be received with great interest. But the court does seem very disposed toward televising the argument.
Sandra Day O'Connor
No, there hasn't been agreement at the court to have the arguments. televised. Things change very slowly at the court. When I joined at 1981, we had a very antiquated kind of computer setup at the court. And when Chief Justice Warren burger, who was Chief Justice when I came when he arrived as Chief Justice, the court didn't even have a copying machine. opinions were tight with eight carbon copies.
Pete Williams
And how are they printed?
Sandra Day O'Connor
With heartland devices? You remember the process of printing where you have to pour hot land for the letters? Oh, my. And it caused delays because it was very difficult to do. Now we use computerized printing mechanisms.
Unknown Speaker
And so opinions are drafted on a computer.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh, it's much easier today. Yes. With fab Not not the substance, but the mechanics are right.
Unknown Speaker
We have the West Wing, which is a program drought dramatic program about how the White House works. There have been movies made advise and consent about how things work in Congress. In just the last year or so there have been two programs that were proposed and didn't go anywhere really about
Sandra Day O'Connor
well, they started, right.
Pete Williams
Yes.
Sandra Day O'Connor
And happily, they fail about the Supreme Court. I was going to Yes. Why do you think that is? How? I don't know. I think it's a very difficult institution to convey in any kind of televised cereal. I mean, it just it's,
Pete Williams
it's hard to do a program about reading 1500 pages a day?
Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes! I mean it's boring, they're turning pages. It is essentially an academic kind