Pat McGinnis
Good morning, and welcome. I'm Pat McGinnis, President and CEO. The Council for excellence in government. And today actually at a luncheon immediately following this discussion, we will present the Elliot Richardson Award for Excellence in public service to two outstanding public pioneers. Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor and Secretary of Transportation, norm moneta, and we are so delighted to have them with us this morning.
This award is named in honor of Elliot Richardson, who was well known to everyone in this room, I think, as a giant public servant, the only person to have led for cabinet departments and a decorated hero in World War Two, not to mention lots of other amazing accomplishments on his resume. And Elliot would have absolutely loved the celebration of excellent public pioneers whose radical moderation like his has led to amazing accomplishments, not only for government but for the whole society. Shortly after Elliot died on New Year's Eve 1999, the council for excellence in government established announced the establishment of this prize to honor his legacy of imagination, courage and leadership. The idea is to recognize extraordinary public servants, who are role models for a new generation of public pioneers. And in our view, what better way to inspire young people to come into public service than to tell stories inspirational personal, true stories, of unusual journeys, of overcoming obstacles of commitment and determination with A little humor thrown in, and a lot of luck along the way. Stories of the American Dream turned into the reality of significant accomplishment for all of us. These are the stories of Sandra Day O'Connor and Norman moneta, and they are wonderful stories. We are so delighted that they have both agreed to be here to talk about these unusual journeys, and how we can interest more young people in following in their footsteps. Before we begin the conversation, I want to describe the results of a survey conducted for us by heart Research Associates about the attitudes of young Americans toward government service. We entitled The survey calling young people to government service from asked not to not ask and we chose that title for good reason. Because we have gone from the Ask not generation of young people who were inspired by President Kennedy to come into service of our country. And I think a lot of us in this room fall into that category. And now we have a current generation of young people equally, if not more talented, but who simply are not being asked to consider government service. Only 27%. According to our poll set of 17 to 24 year olds say they have ever been asked by anyone to consider public service. And that's down 11 points from two years ago when we asked the same question. The good news is, according to the poll and increasing number of 17 to 24 year olds are motivated to do good rather than to do well, by a wide majority young people say that helping people and making a difference is a better reason to come into government service than Good pay and benefits or job security. And interestingly, that reflects a reversal over the years from say seven years ago, when we asked that same question. So that's a trend in the right direction. But only one in three say that government services appealing to them. And that's a decline from 40%. Just two years ago, young people are more and more inclined to turn to community service organizations than to government service to make a difference. And I think that presents quite a challenge for government, given the projected turnover in the government workforce, as the asked not generation retires over the next few years. That coupled with the decline in the pipeline of talented future leaders, presents not only a challenge but an opportunity for all of us, not only to ask, but to inspire the next generation of talented public servants. And that's what the conversation today is all about. It is heartening to note that as this generation looks to role models, according to our poll, 78% say that being honest and respected is the most important characteristic in a role model. So if that's the case, American us have no better role models than Sandra Day O'Connor, and Norman moneta. Call them whatever you want. And actually, I thought a lot about these words before we started. Pioneers, Pathfinders. Mountain movers trailblazers, Dream achievers, even odds breakers. Sandra Day O'Connor and Norman neta are above all quintessential public servants and great role models for the next generation.
I think that john Steinbeck probably had the experiences of people like fam in mind when he wrote and I quote, it's a story you can hardly believe. But it's true. And it's funny, and it's beautiful. How could such courage be? And such faith, strange things happen to them, some bitterly cruel and some so beautiful that the faith is required forever. And that's our challenge to require the faith in public service. Thank you both so much for being here. And now we have the wonderful privilege of having a conversation with you. I'm going to start and then we'll open up to everyone in the room. Justice O'Connor. We want to hear about your journey. From the lazy be ranch. The cattle ranch in southwestern Arizona, many of us have read your book and loved reading about your childhood. It's hard for some of us to imagine Living on a ranch where you didn't have running water or electricity until you were age seven. And I think that explains why by age eight, you could drive a car shoot rifles and take care of yourself very well. So that's a great start on a journey to becoming the first woman to be a majority leader of a state senate anywhere in the US and Arizona, the first woman appointed to the Supreme Court, and one of the most accomplished admired and powerful women in the world. Tell us about who and what helped shape your perspective and what fired your interest in public service.
Sandra Day O'Connor
You've already explained how I grew up basically as a cowgirl in Arizona and New Mexico on a family ranch. It was remote. We went to town about once a week to get groceries supplies and the mail. And the rest of the time we were at the ranch and I was an only child for about 10 years. So there were no other children at the ranch and my companions were our cowboys and my parents, my horses and whatever else was around. It was an amazing life looking back from my perspective today, but at the time, I thought it was perfectly natural. It was a life in which public service was unimaginable. We were just trying to exist and help the livestock survive and pray for rain every single day. We sell them got it. And it was very far removed from a career in the law or even an education. I went away to school from kindergarten through high school because it was too difficult to get to a local school it was too far away. I moved with a grandmother in El Paso, Texas, and went to school there. My father had wanted so much to get a university education. But his parents died and he was sent out to run the ranch for a time. He never left. And I admired him so much because he could do anything. He built our house, he would dig the wells, he would design and construct a solar water heating system he'd attempt to the cattle and any illness that they had. He pulled teeth occasionally for cowboys who were suffering and wanted them to set a few broken bones along the way. I mean, he just was everything and I admired him so much and My mother who made a life, a very nice life out of very difficult circumstances. So they were my role models and the closest we got to the law was a man we knew in Lawrenceburg, New Mexico who had come there to help with his tuberculosis. He was a lawyer from Tennessee. And he was a very skilled trial lawyer. And whenever he was representing some criminal defendant, in some exciting sounding case, we would go to town and stay in the courthouse and watch the fireworks with this wonderful lawyer in performance. So get it must have soap them because eventually that's the direction I took.
Pat McGinnis
So you were in law school and you graduated from law school, what led you to run for the state legislature and to go into public service at that point, and Well, I didn't use them
Sandra Day O'Connor
when I got out of law school in 1952. That's been a while. I discovered, to my surprise, a tribute to my naivety, I guess that the law firms in California in those days wouldn't hire women lawyers, as lawyers. And the closest I got to a job offer was, they might give me an offer to be a legal secretary if my typing would measure up. And I hadn't really gone to law school in hopes of doing that. So I declined that. And I got into public service out of necessity, because john and i got married and he was he still had a year a year to go in law school. And we like to eat. And so that meant one of us was going to have to work and that was me. And I heard about a district attorney in San Mateo County, California. Good once at a woman lawyer on a staff, and I thought if he could have one, he could have another. And I went to see him. He was a wonderful man. And I tell him, Louis de Mateos and he said that he would be interested in having me, but there were two problems. He had no vacancy. And even if he did, he had no space, no office space for anyone else. And so I said, Well, I'll tell you what I'll do, at least to start out work for you for nothing. And if your secretary will permit it, I'll sit in her office, and he had a wonderful secretary and she said, that was okay. And that's how I started and that's how I got my foot in the door for public service. And I soon discovered that it was a great place to be. I got much more exciting work than my classmates who had been rushed by all law firms and nice paying jobs in big firms. I discovered very soon that I had much more interesting work to do than they did. And I loved it. So it kind of set my path in the direction of public service.
Pat McGinnis
I noticed that you graduated third in your class at Stanford Law School. Well, you would think that every law firm across the country would be vying for this talent, not those days. Not most interesting that first in the class was justice request. The law
Sandra Day O'Connor
school says they didn't keep records, but in the opinion of all of our in the opinion of all of our classmates, he ranked first and it was it was a great pleasure to know Him in those days as well as today.
Pat McGinnis
Well, we'll we'll talk more about your experience in public service. Secretary Panetta As a boy, growing up in San Jose, California, you and your family were taken from your home to an internment camp during World War Two, quite an experience and I, I learned that you were wearing your boy scout uniform, when you got on the train to go to this internment camp and experience that I think none of us can even ever imagine. So, from there, you took quite an amazing journey to become the first American, Asian Pacific American to be a mayor of a major United States city, San Jose, your hometown, and the first to serve in to cabinet post for two different presidents of different parties, I might say and that's quite remarkable in itself. Now is Secretary of Transportation with President Bush Of course. As Secretary of Commerce with President Clinton, with a lot of accomplishments along the way, including service in the military in the Korean War, and an amazing record, as a member of the US House of Representatives and committee chair and so many accomplishments, who and what influenced you? And how did you keep your faith in the American dream, and fire your interest in public service?
Norm Mineta
Well, without a doubt,
my dad and my mother for central to our whole family, my dad and mother were immigrants from Japan. And my dad came over as a 14 year old in 1902. And my mother came over as a picture bride in 1912. And so I was the youngest of five. And my dad became a community leader in the Japanese community in San Jose. And so from his long service as a person active in the community, professionally, he was an insurance agent. And so from 1920, he established the 19 of the moneta Insurance Agency. Prior to that he had been a farmer for sprinkles sugar company down in Salinas. And then he was running a ranch for them. And then they had that big influenza epidemic in 1918. And he was in a hospital for about six, seven months. And as a result of that, they said he couldn't go back into farming. So one day he was in a court in San Jose Doing some court interpreting. And these folks came up to him and said, how would you like to go into the insurance business? And so from there, he established the insurance agency in 1920. And, but as a member of the community, he was very active and in service to as sort of a liaison between the Japanese, Japanese American community and the majority community. And so from that I, all five of us got a great deal of, of influence about community service. He wanted all of us to participate in community service, no matter what our outlet might be, church, school, community organizations, whatever it might be. And I remember as a kid going to Grammar School My mother would go to all the PTA meetings, even though she didn't understand English, and sitting in the back of the room, sitting going through all of the PTA meetings for my three older sisters and my older brother, and for me, and by the time I came through Grammar School, and she could be the secretary of the PTA because her knowledge of English wasn't that good. But she could add and subtract. So she became the treasurer of the PTA at our grammar school, and keeping track of the membership dues. And so through different ways, our parents inculcated all of us with some form of, of community service. And I think as you've indicated, the biggest impact on all of our lives was the was the evacuation and in tournament 1942. And so that was the turning point for all of us. I was 11 years old. So the impact on me wasn't as great as it was on my parents or my siblings. But in any event for the whole community, it was a tremendous impact and turning point, and had an indelible effect on how I felt what I wanted to do, or just wanted to help others.
Pat McGinnis
How did you I mean, when you when you left the camp, and I know you had quite some important experiences while you were there. In fact, that's where you met. Senator Alan Simpson, this is the most wonderful story, tell us about that. But then tell us how you went from there to run for mayor of San Jose. What happened along the way?
Norm Mineta
I think one of the other influences on my life was scouting. And when we were in camp in heart mountain, Wyoming, which is about 25 miles east of Cody, Wyoming. With we had a Boy Scout Jamboree in our camp. And our scout leaders tried to get the scouts from the surrounding area to come into the camp. And they all said, No, no, we're not going to go in there. They're a bunch of POW. And we're not going to go in there. And so finally convinced someone convinced them that we were Boy Scouts of America, that we read the same manual. We were going after the same merit badges that they were that we wore the same uniform. So they finally came into the camp for the January. We were all paired off into pub tents. And of course when you have a pup tent, the first thing you do is to build a moat around your tent just in case it rains. And in Wyoming, you have unannounced rains at any point. So the kid who was in the tent with me and I then built this moat, and he said, there's a kid from my troop in the tent below us and I don't really care for him. You mind if we cut the water to exit that way? And it was no skin off my nose so I should Sure. I've always said Alan was as ornery then as he is today.
Unknown Speaker
And
Norm Mineta
so anyway, we dug our boat exits where the water worked well when it rained later that afternoon. And that young kid was Alan Simpson. All through junior high school and highs, junior high, high school and college. We wrote to each other. And then when I graduated from college I had a ROTC commission the war was going on Korean War was going on on went on active duty, and we lost track of each other. And then in 1971, I was elected mayor and Associated Press had a little story about my being elected mayor of San Jose. And in the body of the story, it said that moneta was one of 120,000 Japanese Americans in turn in camps during World War Two, he and his family were had heart mountain Wyoming and the Cody enterprise then picked up on that Associated Press story printed. Allen was practicing law and Cody saw wrote me a nor a letter saying dear norm, congratulations on being elected mayor San Jose, had been wondering what the heck you've been up to all these years and then 74 I was elected to the House. He was elected to the Senate. And our friendship got back together again, just as if we were in that top 10 that we can. And we've just been great, great friends from, from 1944. I mean, 43 To this day, and I love that Alan Simpson. He's just a great guy. Right.
Pat McGinnis
It's a great story. Well, let me ask you before we turn to some people who are with us today, what do you think both of you we can do to attract more talented young people to government service? I mean, it's it's interesting to me that this the numbers are going in the wrong direction. I think maybe after a spike following immediately following September 11, but it really makes me wonder what government leaders in government, all of us here do to make this more attractive, as a as a calling.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Just I think we have to teach as we go along young people that we need to build bridges for the future of our country. And we do it by persuading young people that the individual can make a difference in this world of ours. When I went to Stanford as an undergraduate, I had an inspiring professor. He was giving a undergraduate course on law. And he spent most of his time trying to persuade those of us in the class that the individual can make a difference in the world and you can go out and decide what you're going to work on, by way of improving the world and a country. push something I had never heard that before. So, obviously you have to teach the young, I think you have to tell them how satisfying it is to contribute something in the public sector, in public service, the things that are most satisfying to have achieved come from that kind of service and you have to tell them that and you have to ask them to serve. You have to make suggestions. And finally, I think you have to help them. Many students today come out of school with big bets out of college. Many of my law clerks come out of law school, owing $60,000 or more having borrowed it for their education. Many would like to be in public service, can they know they have to pay off Dad. So I think we need to find better ways of helping young people afford to pay their debts for an education and enter public service.
Pat McGinnis
Right. That's very, very constructive norm, what was obviously
Norm Mineta
from your study, the first thing we have to do is as just as Connor has indicated, is to ask and make sure that people are knowledgeable about what's available in the area of through government service. I mean, if they're willing to do it in nonprofit organizations, and one of the things I've always been concerned about is the ability of the government to attract good people without having the commensurate salaries to attract them. But is there willing to go to the nonprofit sector, obviously paid Can't be that much of a factor. And so what we ought to be able to do is to have aggressive recruiting programs within our government. And one of the fears that I have had our own department of transportation is that as people are leaving now with 3040 years of experience, that we really don't have people to backfill those positions. And so we're undertaking a very aggressive program within our department to try to attract people to bring them in now. But I think we have to ask, we have to is, I don't know whether it was yours study also, but looks like when they talk about role models. We really have to deal with that issue of role models and the issue of, of mentors. If we could have internship programs and mentors so that we pair mentors and proteges, or whatever we may want to call them, and expose them to what's available in public service. And I think that would
hopefully bring a larger number.
To see the kind of good that Justice O'Connor was talking about, that can be accomplished through public service.
Pat McGinnis
I think one of the reasons young people are choosing the nonprofit sector more is because of a sense that they can be more innovative, that they can actually make a difference in a smaller, more entrepreneurial organization. Is there anything to be done to emphasize or to make government more to a place where that values innovation and risk taking?
Norm Mineta
Well, I think one thing that
with the kind of
restricted financial resources that are available today, you just have to make dollars, stretch farther hand make things go to not the state approach, but to innovative new directions. And I think most departments are doing that. And in the Presidential Management agenda that President Bush has laid out, he's given all of us the kind of flexibility to do a lot of innovative things. And I think that that is much more apparent today. And it might have been in the past.
Pat McGinnis
Thank you. Well, let's turn to you and I know we have some young people in the audience, some graduate students of public policy and Presidential Management interns to mention a very excellent intern program.
Todd companion,
who is the president of the Presidential Management intern alumni group has thought a lot about this. I know. Do you have a question that you'd like to ask for?
To Justice O'Connor and Secretary Panetta?
Unknown Speaker
Sure. It's fun being first, um,
Pat McGinnis
can you stand up? Sure, um,
Unknown Speaker
program recently changed its name. We were the Presidential Management internship program. It is now the Presidential Management Fellows Program. It's been running for 27 years, bringing about 400 people a year into federal service for two year internships and the concern that I have as president of the alumni group and that I'd like to ask for your folks his input on is more than a third of our alumni leave public service after that, with the caveat that people move In and out of public services, they have careers. What would you say are good strategies for keeping people in public service? And let me as just full disclosure, say I recently left public service because I couldn't get a promotion where I was I expect to return. But when you think on your experience, what do you think keeps people in public service? And what do you think brings them back? And thank you for your time?
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, I think it's having interesting work to do. When you see a position that you know is going to be interesting, then you will put everything else aside and take it. When I went in the attorney general's office and Arizona, I just it was marvelous. It was one of the most interesting jobs I've ever held. I absolutely loved it. And when I went in the state legislature, that was a fascinating thing to do. So I always thought it was the privilege of maybe working at something where the you know, the is going to be interesting. You'll learn something and and gain in that way from what you're doing
Norm Mineta
today
that with the tough job market out there, then government service becomes a already place for good applicants to look to. And when I think of young law school graduates and Justice O'Connor would be much more familiar with it. But I can take as an example, my own niece, who graduated from law school, and got a fabulous offer at a law firm in San Francisco. And when she got this offer, I said, Lisa, this is not reality. And she said, uncle, normally reality is, this is what I've been ordered. offered. I've accepted They offer and I've ordered my BMW. Now I said now that's reality. I understand ordering the BMW.
But I think that there are a lot of
opportunities in the federal government and state and local government as well. For people who are really willing to, to learn and to grow in those respective levels of government. There are many, many opportunities.
She's now she ended up
as I recall, working 2400 2500 billable hours. She wasn't working. She was working at night. She was working on weekends. And she finally left that after about five or six years and went into becoming an attorney for One of the three Superior Court judges in Monterey County, and has been there ever since. And it's proven to for her to be innovative work it's been, it's given her a lot of opportunities without being shackled to a desk all the time. And and, and I know that she's gotten some intangible rewards from it. It may not be the financial rewards you might get in the private sector. But there have been a number of other kinds of incentives and rewards that she has gotten that have proven to her. And as I look at her as an example, what can be done in the public sector side?
Pat McGinnis
I think coming in and out of government is not necessarily a bad thing, but maybe we make need to make that a little easier to do. Alisa denser who is a graduate student in the University of Maryland School of Public Policy, actually, she was one of my students last semester. Elisa.
Unknown Speaker
Thank you. I'm actually going to tie a little bit into that question. Given someone starting a career and moving in and out of public and private service, I saw that both of you in your BIOS had done private sector work and public sector work. How would you structure a career to really benefit from both sides of the of the equation?
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, I just didn't really try to make a long term goal becoming a Supreme Court justice never entered my mind.
Pat McGinnis
on your resume.
Sandra Day O'Connor
I just wanted to find work to do. That was interesting work where I was learning something new and having an impact on my community. And that's what I looked for. And I found that totally satisfying. And I was willing to change direction every few years to gain some new experiences that was okay to. We live a long time these days, and we can afford to change direction now and then to I served in all three branches of Arizona state government, and I learned a great deal from each of those experiences. I wasn't working for the money Indeed, I paid my babysitter more than I myself earned. But it was great. I really learned all kinds of things. So I just think you have to look at the interest in the work you have and don't think you have to set some long term goal and plot every step along the way. The fact that is if you do a great job, you are going to have some new opportunities. that's crucial. If you do some super job, people see that they're gonna offer you something else down the road.
Pat McGinnis
Great advice.
Norm Mineta
I couldn't agree more with Justice O'Connor on that point. I think one of the problems of people in politics is they do set some kind of a goal. And when I think about being a member of the city council in San Jose, it was never in my mind about becoming mayor. Or if i when i was mayor, about being a member of the House of Representatives, but as Justice O'Connor says, what you do is you work like heck at the job you're in. People will recognize that and also, you're in control of your own future. Because if you're so set on a goal you're making Decisions today on what you think will help you get to that goal. And especially in politics, I find that a lot of people will have their goal. So set on their eyesight, so set on the goal out there, they'll trip over something right in front of them. And so to me, what you do is work at the job you're at. And then when opportunities arise, you can take that opportunity, or keep going, the path you're going and you're in control of your own future, your own destiny. Whereas if you're setting goals out there, and each become the benchmark of where you're going, you may pass up an opportunity that might otherwise be a better road to to follow. And so I've always felt work like heck at the job. You already Let the future
come to you. In terms of opportunities,
Sandra Day O'Connor
I have an MDM artifact hanging in my chambers. It's a basket done by a Papago Indian. And it's my favorite, because it's the man in the maze, and it shows a human figure at the top. And then there's a maze under it till you get to the heart. And that's what life is, after all. We're like the man walking in the maze. We don't know which path to take always. We know that what we want is to work at something worth doing. At least that was the heart for me to work at something that was worth doing, how to get there, you're not sure and you come to choices in line. You have to go this path or that and you don't know what's going to lead to it. Don't worry about it make the best decision you can at the time and do the very best job you can with whatever opportunity you have. When I first went to the attorney general's office in Arizona, I was the only woman and they didn't have a place for me. And they sent me to the Arizona State Hospital for the mentally ill. Well, okay. It didn't sound perfect. But I set up shop out there and I met with the staff, all the doctors and nurses and I said, Now what do you need at this hospital? What's needed here to make it first rate, I met with the board of the state hospital and said, from your perspective, what's needed to make changes here. And finally, I met with committees of some of the inmates to see what their needs were. And then I went about designing things to help at all levels rewrote the whole mental health commitment law in the state of Arizona. Why toward programs where patients could be released on drugs but followed up to help them in that release. And for patients setting up a lawyer referral plan for them. I mean, it was great. And when I left there, everybody was just so sad to see me go. But they all felt that things had gotten better. Now, that's what you want. That's
Pat McGinnis
great. Well, let's let's open this up, because I know many of you have questions or thoughts that you want to share. And so while you're here, Bob, and we know we have a microphone to give you
if you could just introduce yourself.
Unknown Speaker
I'm Bob Dawson. you've both been subject to Senate confirmation. And it seems nowadays that that process is less interested in character and competence and Often, candidates for public service can get hung up on issues unrelated to character or competence. What do you think can be done to improve that Senate confirmation process, inject more goodwill and more focus on competence and character.
Sandra Day O'Connor
I don't know what to say about that what one hopes to find in public service at the highest levels, for instance, instance in our United States Senate is members who understand that at bottom, we do need competent public servants in working for the United States government and to show an interest in identifying those people who really can do a good job and I don't know how you do that. One hopes that that is a self evident process.
Norm Mineta
Bob, I would have responded the next question. Let me also indicate Bob Dawson was our, one of our top clerks on our public works and transportation committee in the House of Representatives. From my own personal experience, I've got to say that they were not bad experiences. And and I'm not sure and I think partially, that's because the subject matter transportation is really more bipartisan. And I've always sa