O'Connor House
Tell us about the first time you met Sandra Day O'Connor.
Diane McCarthy
It was, I was thinking about this the other day and I believe the first time that I ever met the justice was when I, probably was running for election in 1972. I was running for the State House of Representatives and had won the primary. That was one of those interesting primaries in those days where it was six people running for two seats, and I was the only woman running and came in second, which is all I had to do to win. And then got together with the people who were presumed to be winning, you know, between the primary and the, and the general, and then of course after the general.
So that was my very first opportunity to meet her. At that point, of course, she was the Senate majority leader, and I was an incoming freshmen woman legislator. The first session, however, my freshman year, was really quite interesting from, from a personal standpoint, because I really had an opportunity to work very, very closely with her. The, this is, of course, going back to the fact that this was during the ERA, the Equal Rights Amendment, "Everybody has to come on board," you know, "We need equal rights across the country, we need to change the Constitution," all of that stuff.
Well, of course, as you know, in Arizona, we have a big issue about states' rights and we know how to do things better than everybody else. And, we were looking for, was there kind of an edge that that we could have? And interestingly enough, there were a group of law students from the University of Arizona who had prepared a wonderful treatise looking at all the laws in Arizona that provided unequal treatment of men and women. Interesting things, one that had a state law against men piano teachers, and it had, went back to the early days of statehood, and some legislator whose wife, I guess, was doing something bad with a piano teacher. I mean, it was stupid things. But it really was very comprehensive, and [we] said, "What if we took this piece of leg–this wonderful thing that had been done by the, the students and turn it around into a bill that would eliminate all of this inequality in Arizona?" Well, there was a group of us freshmen, went into the Speaker of the House and said, "How about if we do this?" And he looked at us and said, "Get out."
And then about two days later [he] came over to my, we didn't have offices, we had little stalls up on the third floor, and said, "You know, I've been thinking about that, that might not be a bad idea, why don't you go over and talk to Sandra about this?" So I did. And she thought it was a wonderful idea. And in fact, she was very interested in, in adding no-fault divorce at that point. So I had the great opportunity as a freshman to run a bill from the House that literally changed all the laws in Arizona so that, in fact, there was no inequality between, among the sexes, and gave us the opportunity in Arizona to say, "Hey, we did it. We did it. We don't, I mean, the Equal Rights Amendment, we don't need, the Equal Rights fight is over in Arizona." So that really was a very, very big event in my life as a, as a freshman.
O'Connor House
So how did you
, tell us about those legislative years as she was down at the legislature and your interactions with her?
Diane McCarthy
I was, she and I were only together for two years. That was her last session. And then she went on to become a judge. But probably the most enduring memories of that, I remember at the end of session one, one time. And the end of legislative sessions is always the same. It's, you know, wear everybody out until everybody's willing to say yes, so they can go home just to get out of there. And I happened to be with her, we were over in the Senate. And the Senate President Bill Jaquin wanted to work through the night just so that we could get out of there. And she said, "Well, you can, but you're going to do it without me." And he said, "What do you mean I'm going to do without you?" She said, "My boys are going to camp tomorrow. I'm going home and I'm going to pack for them, and I'm going to make sure they get off to camp tomorrow." And everybody just looked at her and said, "Oh. Okay." And I think that speaks volumes of the fact that she has always understood what is important, what needs to be done, and you go about doing it. And to her, at that point, her family was far more important than ending a legislative session, which, you know, may have ended at three in the morning or four o'clock the following afternoon. But it was important for her to go home and make sure the boys got off to camp. So I think that, that does really speak volumes of how impactful, not forceful, but impactful a woman she has always been.
O'Connor House
But, talk about her reputation in the legislature and what it was like to have a woman as Majority Leader?
Diane McCarthy
Her reputation was, she was extremely, she was, she wanted to make sure that legislation was correct. And I think a lot of that was her legal background. She wanted to make sure that, grammatically, it was correct. And I don't think we ever sent anything over to the Senate from the House that didn't come back with some kind of correction, which, bless her, she was that careful. And I think one of the interesting things, and particularly–this is going back to the early 70s, I can't say that it happens today, but it did then–there always have been a lot of women in the legislature. And I think that goes back to the whole pioneer tradition. But women, we intuitively knew that we had to read the bills before we could speak up in caucus where we, before we could speak up on the floor. Because if we made any kind of a mistake at all, it, well, "Oh, she's a girl. She just doesn't know better." Men can make mistakes all the time. Women had to be very careful. Sandra was extremely careful. And I think that was an, a very, very good trait for all of us to have. To realize that you're passing a law that impacts everybody in the state of Arizona because it is a state law. It isn't a town council. It isn't a county board of supervisors. It's a state. And you have to realize this is a very diverse state. I mean, we have a couple of big, urban areas, but we have far more rural areas. And is this really what needs to happen across the state of Arizona? So I, I really give her a lot of credit for–I mean she was raised in rural Arizona. She knew what the impact was going to be. So I give her a lot of credit for being as careful and cautious as she was.
O'Connor House
So we know about some of the dinners where she would invite members
from both chambers to come over to their home. Were you ever part of that?
Diane McCarthy
Once.
O'Connor House
Okay.
Diane McCarthy
But it was, but it really was more on the Senate side that she, that she worked, rather than the House. And of course the stories are, are legend. And there are a lot of people around who, who still remember. Interestingly enough, John, of course, an attorney. Jackie Steiner was there. Her husband Fred was an attorney. Tom McCarthy, my husband, an attorney. And they, all three of them referred to themselves as "Mr. Diane" or "Mr. Sandra," and it really was quite cute. And I think that, that had a lot to do with it, too, because I think that attorneys are under, have a good self, sense of self-confidence and didn't feel threatened by having a woman undertake those kinds of activities.
O'Connor House
So how do you think her legislative years benefited her on the bench?
Diane McCarthy
Oh, I think the fact that once she–I think it had far greater impact on the United States Supreme Court than it did when she was in the state courts. Because she truly understood the people, that she had the experience. She knew what impacts were, as a result of the decisions that you made, she had an experience that nobody else had on the Court at that time. And in fact, I think, to this day, there isn't anybody. I know there are people who have had, had experiences as law professors and things of that nature, but never as an elected official at the state level to see what that impact was going to be.
O'Connor House
So what is a memory that you have of Sandra Day O'Connor that stays with you?
Diane McCarthy
There were a couple. She was, when she was in the legislature she was also the chairman of the state Civil Rights Commission. And I had the opportunity to follow her. I think probably the lasting memory is how,
how she treated others. It was always with respect. It was always with dignity. It was always with warmth. But she always made sure that people knew what her opinion was. She wasn't demanding, but she was forceful. And she, not, she was impactful. I mean, I don't want to say "forceful" because that, that's not a, that's not the correct word. But she was extremely impactful. I have seen her in social settings. I have certainly seen her as the Senate majority leader. I have seen her chairing meetings. And I don't know that there's any one that really stands out. But every time I had the opportunity to be with her, see her, watch her, be next to her, it was amazing the, the presence that she had. That everybody recognized how brilliant she is. And just, she was head and shoulders above everybody else.
O'Connor House
So, what do you think is her greatest contribution?
Diane McCarthy
To me the greatest contribution was obviously being the first woman on the Court. And an interesting story about that. I had the opportunity to be a member of the Arizona Historical Foundation. And it was our, as part of what the historical foundation did, we sponsored a luncheon every year to honor someone who had made outstanding service to the state of Arizona. And in fact, had asked the Justice if she would come and be our guest. And we had chosen a date for this, and she had said yes, she would be would be delighted to come and, and, and meet with the foundation. And, of course, it was a, it was a large luncheon. And we didn't know at that point that it was going to take so long for President Bush to name a replacement for her. And as it happened, the lunch literally was the day after she was no longer a justice. Yeah, I mean, it was, we just couldn't believe our good fortune that, on the timing of something like that. And for her to be able to, and of course, the Historical Foundation, were her friends. A lot of people with whom she had grown up, so. Very exciting.
O'Connor House
Is there anything else you'd like us to know about your experiences with Sandra Day O'Connor?
Diane McCarthy
I also had the opportunity to be a member of the Downtown Soroptimist with her. And she was a president, I believe for two years. And one of those was, both of those were after she had been in the legislature and was, was on the bench at that time. And again, the leadership that she provided–that, at the time was the largest Soroptimist group in the state of Arizona, we had well over 150 members. And it was all of the women who literally were involved in whatever it, whether it was business, nonprofits, service organizations in the metro Phoenix area. And, again, provided a great, great amount of leadership and, and mentorship. And I'm, I couldn't imagine the number of women that she has mentored over the years, not just in law, but in a group like that. And, I mean, she was very active in a lot of nonprofits. Everybody, of course, wanted to have her on their board, wanted her to be the chairman of their board, wanted her to lead this or that organization. And she was always so willing to give of her time and her talent.
O'Connor House
Well, thank you so much. This has been wonderful if there's anything else you'd like to say. Thank you. Thank you, that was wonderful.