Note: At the time this interview was conducted, the Sandra Day O'Connor Institute was known as "O'Connor House." The organization's name was changed in 2015.
Gay Wray
Gay Firestone Wray, G-A-Y, last name W-R-A-Y.
October the 28th, 2014.
O'Connor House
All right, so,
to get started, tell us about the time when you first met Sandra Day O'Connor.
Gay Wray
I can't remember the first time. Our family moved here in the early 60s. And I remember playing tennis with Sandra. I remember mostly the children going to school together, her three, my three at different ages and stages. And I remember the ranching part of it. My then-husband went into ranching and agriculture and cattle. And Sandra, of course, is exactly where she'd come from. So during the 60s and the 70s, we would meet once in a while for dinners for, for benefits, for school activities. And Sandra was just one of the girls. A very good girl, because she was a good tennis player, good golfer, good fisherman. She was an everything girl. She went to, of course to, the state government. So we were all very reverent. I met a lot of people had gone to school with her. And so that's how I knew her best.
Then, in 19, early 80s, Sandra, of course, was tapped by Ronald Reagan to go to the court. And that's when she called me seriously and said, "I need you to take a position on the Smithsonian National Board, which I am on and have to give up because of my Court responsibility." More importantly, I said, "Oh, Sandra, I'm not sure I'm the person for that." She said, "You are." And because I had seen her on TV, doing such a great job with the Senate hearings, I said, "Okay, I'll do anything you want." So in the middle 80s, I went to the Smithsonian National Board. I served my time.
And the funniest story is this one. Most of the National Board was male. All gone to Ivy League colleges, and they were all CEOs of important corporations in America. And all of a sudden, I'm leaving the board, coming back because I had a lot of legal stuff to do here in Arizona. And they called me and said, "We would like you to be the chairman." "Well!" I said. I laughed, I laughed. I thought, "This isn't gonna work." "Yes, Gay, you'll be the one." So I thought, "I can't do this. I can't do this, it's too much right now." But I called Sandra and I said, "Sandra, I hope I've served you well, I hope I've not embarrassed you. We had such good times. We were in Washington together. The Smithsonian and the Court. We did a lot of wonderful things." "But," I said, "they want me to be Chairman. I just don't know if I can do it." Sandra said, "Well, you would be the first woman, wouldn't you? Is there any question?" I said, "I am sorry. I called you. You're absolutely right." And that's how that all started. So she was still in Washington with John, and we would see each other at Smithsonian functions, at Court functions, and things like that. She was very generous with the Smithsonian, and now is back on the Smithsonian Natural History Museum board, and I'm thrilled.
So anyway, in 19, no, excuse me in 2006, was early that year like February,
O'Connor House
I'd like to ask–
Gay Wray
Yes, sorry.
O'Connor House
Did you go back to Washington for her swearing in or any of those times when she was out on the Court? Tell us about some of the functions you went to, what was the perception of people in Washington? How did they treat her, how did they–what was that like? I haven't had much information about the Washington, the time in Washington.
Gay Wray
They were the most popular, most, couple in demand because John was so charming. And of course Sandra was so important and wonderful. Across the board, be they people who lived there like, my brother lives there, is not in politics, everybody loved them immensely. Sandra would be very generous with the Court. As you may know, she started, she started a gym in the, in the basement of the Court where everybody could go and exercise, because they were sit all day in those robes and nobody does anything. And certainly the staff needs to have some exercise, too.
She opened up the dining rooms, so that we had dinners there. And people could look at all of the portraits of the past Chief Justices. And either Rehnquist and later on, Roberts would tell the stories of each one of the wonderful Chief Justice of the United States. She made it a human place to be. Now of course, when you drive in to the Supreme Court, you're down in the basement. It's a little scary because of the security. But meanwhile, when you get up to Sandra's quarters and Sandra's offices, it becomes very human. I will tell you this. My son went to Stanford Business School, a very small group. It was 40 people, most of them were from overseas. It's a one-year program. I called Sandra and I said, "I'm bringing everybody to Washington because they're traveling so much. Would you talk to this very special middle management, wonderful, mis–excuse me, Stanford group." She said, "Yes." We all, in our bus, went to the Court. And Sandra was fantastic with these young people. She stood there and leaned on the back of the table and talked to them like I'm talking to you. Just matter of fact. They asked her many questions, she told them about the Court. The questions that the children asked, were just mind-boggling. And two of the girls were from Colombia. Now we're talking around the year 2000. And one of the girls said, "Justice O'Connor, how do we get justice in our country? We are in such terrible trouble with all the drug cartels and everything." And the wisest thing she ever said, "It will start with you. Your generation. You girls have got to go home and start this. I'm not sure our generation can do it. But you are the ones that will make your country solvent and, and true." I mean, we everybody was kind of like, "Okay." She answered questions from, we had people from Italy, from England for it. She was wonderful. It was one of the best interviews I've ever heard her do. This, with all these young people, were not, maybe 30s at the most. It was a terrific, so. But John and Sandra were, were terrific. They were very popular. I do not know how she did all of the social activities along with all of her court activities. But knowing her, she was a dynamo. They, they first were in town in the District, and they moved out to Chevy Chase. And it, they were always well sought-after. It was fun to be with them. I did not go to her swearing in, because I didn't think that it was mine to do. Later on, it became much more exciting to me.
O'Connor House
So, you were acquainted with her at the time she was nominated to the court by President Reagan?
Gay Wray
Yes.
O'Connor House
So, what was the buzz in Phoenix? What was the talk amongst your circles?
Gay Wray
It's tough when you've, say, driven a carpool or played tennis with somebody that is like you or you've been to school with, to all of a sudden be shot into all the media and shot in Washington. You're playing a tennis game and she gets a phone call from from DC. It was difficult. I thought it was the most exciting thing going on. Because knowing Washington, just having lived there and everything, I thought it was terrific. A lot of people did not understand how it, how it was going to change their lives, much less her life. And it was, it was hard, especially when you've done everyday things to be, now, the most important woman, not only in this country, but probably in the world. And a lot of them did not–well, a lot of theme were, we were all excited, but on different levels. That's what I was remembering. I thought it was terrific.
O'Connor House
So moving forward. Yes. She served on the Court for a quarter century. So now it's 2006. So tell us about, she's back in town having stepped down from the Court. And, tell us about the house, and someone else has, it's already been bought and sold, excuse me sold and purchased. So tell us, bring us up to speed on that.
Gay Wray
Back to early 2006.
The Secretary of the Smithsonian at that time was Larry Small. He was out here, and he was coming to the southwest. Sandra wanted to meet with him. They both had the same boss. Chief Justice Rehnquist is the Chief Regent of the Smithsonian and, of course, the Chief Justice in the Supreme Court. They wanted to talk about him. And so I said, "Well, why don't you come for lunch, Sandra?" And John was, was there, too, which was very nice at that time. So there was Larry small and his right hand lady, Jenny Clark, and the brand new board member of the Smithsonian National Board, Barbara Barrett.
So the 1, 2, 3, 4 or five of us sat down for lunch at that corner table. And before that, Sandra had walked into the house and said, and had noticed my mother's portrait, which was painted in 1941, with me standing there with my knobby knees as a kid, and said, "I have always liked that portrait. Where was it painted, and when?" I said, "In Newport, Rhode Island, in our house that they are now tearing down." And she said, and looked at me, she said, "They're tearing down our house now, too. John and my house that we built." So we went to lunch, we had a very nice lunch, and during the course of the luncheon, Larry Small was telling her more about the Smithsonian, that all the buildings there, we have some of the oldest buildings in Washington, we may have to definitely redo them if not tear them down, and she said, "Like my house." Dear Barbara Barrett looked across the table at me and stared at me. And I stared back at her.
So going out the door after the lunch, Barbara said to me, "Where's the house?" I said, "Call me in half an hour, and I will meet you there." So I said goodbye to all the guests. They went on their way. And Barbara and I talked, and we went directly to where the house was. Close to Barbara, close to me, on Denton Lane. We drove in, and we looked. And we thought, "Oh my, my, what do we do now?" This is a residential area, there's no parking, there's no nothing. The whole place is a mess. What do we do? Well, we didn't know what to do. But the first thing we found out is who owned the house, and did they care? Well, we didn't find out that it was a son of friends of ours, so we approached accordingly. And they were not interested in anything we were doing at the time. But we thought about it long and hard, and we thought if we could form a 501(c)(3), a tax-deductible approach, maybe they'd be interested. And believe me, they were. So that gave us the incentive to go ahead and think, "Alright, we can't have the house in honor of Sandra, she's been honored all over the country but not necessarily in her own home state." Yes, we have the Sandra Day O'Connor, what is it, the court building, but it's, at, but at that time, it was not dedicated or anything like that. And it was like a great big greenhouse, and the only thing in there that's hers, really, is the giant statue, which is beautiful, but not very personal.
So we thought, "Okay, what are we going to do with a house that we know nothing about?" So Barbara and I went to the Dean of the then-Sandra Day O Law–Sandra Day O'Connor Law School at ASU, and talked with Chris White, a lovely lady, and said, "Is it possible to maybe put this house on campus here at ASU? It would be a meeting place for all the lawyers and everything like that." Well, they stirred around for about six months, we visited there two or three times, barely looked at any place we could put it. And all of a sudden the campus projects were not, in, going to help us in any way. So our next stop was the Desert Botanical Garden, because Sandra had been on the board there. And we thought it was a beautiful place to be, but they were, they were willing to store the house, but they weren't willing to put it up. And they were in the middle of a capital campaign and could not think beyond that.
We were kind of stumped, but all of a sudden, and I can't remember how we met the Mayor of Tempe at the time, Hugh Hallman. And he said, "I think I may have a place for your house." He had three places, we had a choice of three places. And then he said, "I'd like you to meet this wonderful woman, Janie Ellis, because she knows about adobe brick houses." So we had a meeting, I do believe the first meeting was at Cattletrack where Janie lives. And we sat there. And then he asked us, and we sat there and talked about the house. And at that time, I do believe Sandra said, "Would George Ellis be related to you?" And of course he was Janie's father and had known about the house when he was an architect and lived here.
So, then we went down to Hugh Hallman's offices, we looked at the three places that he wanted to put it. I think Elva Coor was with us then. We picked Papago Park, because it was higher, because it was more protected, because there was a water feature running through the brook, which, of course, was where Sandra and John had lived by the canal. And that's the one we picked and started in. Okay, now how do you move an adobe brick house? Only Janie, the miracle worker can tell us that. But it was a wonderful, wonderful time to do it. It only took us two years, did it take us two years? Three years! But we only broke four of the adobe bricks, numbered as they were, looking like some computer-age monster. And it really, really worked.
So there we are. And we moved the house, and we're all celebrating, and I'm thinking, "Oh, good. There's the wonderful icon of Justice O'Connor and, and John and the boys. And, and now we can use it occasionally." And then the Justice, in her supreme wisdom, turned around and said, "Well, this will be the perfect place to launch the programs." I said, "Programs? We haven't talked about any programs." And that's when it all started. That's when O'Connor House really got into its heyday, to be honest with you. And the programs that been going on and are still going on. And I know she's not finished yet. So it's wonderful, especially iCivics, Smithsonian, and our educational programs promotes this. Domestic violence, sex trafficking, getting the vote out. Everything is so timely and so her.
So I'm terribly
happy to be in part of it. But it's almost like, how do I put this? It's almost an act of God in some ways. Who would ever think that this would have happened in 2000 and, golly, in the 80s, even? It's all sequential. And, and it's all her fault, and I love her for it.
O'Connor House
I have a follow up question about the formation of the 501(c)(3). So once the house was moved, so, the idea of what the mission, were you involved in the idea of the mission of solving social problems through consensus building? Were you part of that conversation?
Gay Wray
Not in the beginning.
O'Connor House
Okay.
Gay Wray
It was a simple, factual, "Let's get the house out of there before it is wrecked. Let's get the house where it belongs. And then we'll work on whatever later." But in the beginning, it was a simple moving project which consumed us greatly. Raising the money, getting people to understand what we were doing, why we were doing it, who cares about this house, it's just a house, and then trying to tell and educate people to what went on in that house, who was there. And what was so much fun is having the boys tell the stories of what went on in that house, some of which I knew through my own children, but the parents never know exactly what went down. I remember Brian telling the best of stories, and we don't have to repeat all those. But it was, it was fun to find out how full of mischief that house was and how full of history that house was. But then we got serious. And then we had to really decide what types of programs we really, really needed and what was the mission of the house. It wasn't just an object, an icon. It was a living purpose. And that's what we had to work on then. But that took it to, took us to a whole new, a whole new area, which I was not fully prepared for. And, and yet it made so much more sense to do it. And especially when she was right here most of the time. Yes.
O'Connor House
You were on the founding board if you will, for friends, it was Friends of O'Connor House and then it became O'Connor House. So, can you identify the difference and then talk about who was on the founding board?
Gay Wray
I'd have to go back and look, but I'm, Kim Sterling was there, of course. Elva Coor. Paula Hilby. There were some men, why can't I remember their names, you got to help me out. But, oh, of course, Hugh. Yes, Hugh was an integral part, too.
O'Connor House
Was Don Budinger a…?
Gay Wray
Yes, Don was there for a short time. And then, we had an advisory board, which was a little premature, because we had nothing to advise on. And they didn't feel–and there was another gentleman, too, I'm trying to remember. We were trying to set the thing up and make it work. It was hard in the beginning when we really didn't have programs like we do now. And, and complete, you know what we really need to do. It was, it was kind of a hide and watch what we could do, and then, "How are we going to get it done?" But yes, it was, it was a great board. And everybody really cared to be there. And, of course, the Justice was, was our icon, and whatever she said, went. So.
O'Connor House
So having been there from day one, and then having served on the founding board and being on the board all these years and seeing–how has O'Connor House evolved, in your view, in terms of trajectory? And I know you're going to be, there's another one of my questions. But I mean, 5, 10 years from now, 25 years from now, where do you see the opportunity for O'Connor House, as one of its founders?
Gay Wray
I think O'Connor House is always going to be that entity that is, hopefully, non-political and yet, gets the job done. God forbid I would be here in 25 years because we don't need any more wheelchairs or walkers around. But what I'm saying is, it is evolving into a space that needs so much help at this time. With people, with government, with just existing. And I see, I see it more than a think tank, more, I see it as an action–and with the Justice behind it, which hopefully she'll be there a long time to do this. She does not stand still, and neither will we. And that's where we're going to go forward and really get into areas that nobody wants to be in, like sex trafficking. I mean, that, to me is a very intangible area for most people. Some people I can't even talk to about it. But we all know exists, and we don't know how it works, but areas that nobody wants to talk about, but affect our everyday lives. Yes, I see us going forward and up, and up, and up. And, and none of us can stand still at this point. And none of us can sit on our laurels because, I mean, so it's a house. So we moved it, so what? Now what are we going to do? And that was when the light went on with me and Sandra, I mean, with Sandra and myself, and I said, "Okay, I realize now why we did this." It wasn't just, I mean, I've worked with houses before, not quite like this, but anyway, this was the purpose of the whole thing. It's like birthing quintuplets, to be honest with you. And because it just goes with the arms of the O'Connor House goes out forever and touches so many of–I mean, let's face it. Justice O'Connor is a rock star. I'm sitting, having a very quiet dinner with her and people come up from all over. Young people adore her and will say, "Justice O'Connor, you're the reason that I became a lawyer. You're the one that gave us as women hope we could be in the justice system and make, make things different." I mean, that to me, should be shadowed throughout this whole–her sense of energy is far beyond anything I have known. And she's brilliant. And it's wonderful to be around brilliant people.
O'Connor House
Is there anything else, Gay? This has been so priceless. Anything else you'd like to say or add, Sandra Day O'Connor, anything
you'd want
others to know.
Gay Wray
It's been a pleasure to know her. Not that anyone can really know the entire person because it is the most complex miracle that I know at this point. I've loved the family. I teased her one time, because my girls were driving me absolutely crazy. And I said, I often wonder if you'd had three daughters if you would have made the Supreme Court, because they would be telling you how to dress, what to do, and where to go. And I said, "But you had three sons and God was kind." And I, I just think it has been a wonderful journey. A saga, if you will. Starting back from the 60s to, what is it, 2014. She has been a very important force in my life, and certainly in everyone's life that she touches. And she touches us all. And, and it's been, it's been a joy, and a surprise, and a wonderful thought. But anyway, I love her dearly. And I'll do anything to get the O'Connor House going and going and going. Because this is a legacy that goes far beyond all of us here. Thank you.
O'Connor House
That was fantastic.
Gay Wray
That's the way I feel.
—
O'Connor House
Why don't you tell us about this portrait?
Gay Wray
This is a portrait of my mother and, and I was three years old at the time. And I love this portrait because unfortunately my mother died when I was five. So it's very dear to me, and I've lived with it for a long time. My brother has always said I have knobby knees and that I was really a brat. This stupid book was a book on, on, she couldn't read to me, it was all about music. And it was painted in Newport, Rhode Island. You can see the ocean is supposed to be out there. And our house was up on a hill overlooking the ocean in Rhode Island. And it was done in 1941 just, well, it was the summer before the war, as I remember, in December.
And it's hung there a long time, and Sandra's been in this house and walked over and said, "I like that portrait. Where was it painted? And how long ago was it?" Many people think that's my daughter and myself because mom and I looked a great deal alike. But anyway, so I told her that they were tearing down the house where we were, all grew up. And she then mentioned that they were tearing down John and her house that they built in '57. And that was very sad. And we both commiserated at that time, I didn't even think anything about it at that time.
—
Gay Wray
We had a very simple lunch that day with Justice O'Connor. John O'Connor was here. The then-secretary of the Smithsonian, Larry Small, was here, his right hand lady Jenny Clark, and Barbara Barrett. And that's how everybody sat, the Justice was right here. John was, I was there, and John was here. It was a very nice lunch. And we talked, everybody talked. Barbara was the new on the, new board member of the Smithsonian National Board. She is now, of course, a regent, and I'm so proud of her. And she's heading up the capital campaign at the Smithsonian. But anyway, more importantly, it was a wonderful lunch, and everybody was talking, and Larry Small was telling Sandra, especially, about the buildings at the Smithsonian and all of the work we had to do, and that we might have to tear some down because they're too old and we might have to fix this one. And as Sandra repeated again, they're tearing down, John and my house. And I said there and Barbara Barrett sat there, and we looked at each other and we knew we had to do something. But we didn't know what we had to do or how we were going to do it. But thanks to Barbara and Craig, of course, we did it. And somehow, we started the ball rolling, and it was a very important time
for all of us.