Sandra Day O'Connor (video clip)
Welcome to O'Connor House. I spent 25 years in Washington, D.C. But my heart has always been here in Arizona. And right here in this house, this adobe house, where we reared our three children and lived for more than 25 years. And it's a great setting for the O'Connor House Centennial Series. Because it's the place where a good many spirited debates took place through the years. And as Arizona moves into its second century, I'm going to sit down with some of Arizona's most prominent elected officials to tell some of our personal stories about some of the events that shaped Arizona's political landscape. So join me here at O'Connor House for a look into Arizona's past and a glimpse into what might be her future.
Sandra Day O'Connor
It is such a delight to be here today with you, Senator McCain.
John McCain
Thank you very much.
Sandra Day O'Connor
You've had links in your political career with all of Arizona's big leaders. I mean, Barry Goldwater, John Rhodes, Mo Udall, everybody.
John McCain
Succeeded John Rhodes, as you mentioned. I had the pleasure of knowing Paul Fannin.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes.
John McCain
And yeah, it's a really it's been a great honor to, to know those people.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Do you have any special comments you'd like to make about any of them before we get started?
John McCain
They were special people. You know, if I might say, and you're the epitome of this, Arizona was once a much smaller state. But the result of our political process has been that we've had remarkable people from both sides of the aisle. People like Mo Udall, yourself, who have been really trailblazers. Barry Goldwater was the beginning of the conservative, a true conservative movement in this country, even though he lost so badly running for President. Ronald Reagan often said, as, you know, if it hadn't been for Barry Goldwater, I wouldn't have been President of the United states. He—Reagan said that.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well I think that's right. He was an amazing figure.
John McCain
John Rhodes, Minority Leader in the House. Barry Goldwater goes without saying. Morris Udall was, probably had more impact on environmental issues than any member of Congress. And sometimes you and I may not have agreed with some of those positions, but he was a trailblazer. Whether it be the Arctic National Wildlife Area, whether it be the three and a half million acres of Arizona that we put in permanent pristine preservation. He was a remarkable man and loved by all. You know, the Democrats had a process that their Committee Chairman would submit to a secret ballot of the entire group of Democrats. And Mo Udall was the only one who was always unanimously approved by his entire conference. He would, there was not a mean bone in his body.
Sandra Day O'Connor
There wasn't. And he was also funny. He just had a great sense of humor,
John McCain
The funniest guy I ever knew. And I stole so many of his jokes. I can't tell you, I'm embarrassed to tell you how many of his jokes—and he had, like all people with gifts of humor, he had a sense of timing. I don't know how many times I tell you that I was in meetings with him and other members. And people go on and on, blah, blah, blah, and finally Mo would say, "You know, everything that could possibly be said on this issue has been said, only not everyone has said it. Now, John, do you have a comment to make?" I mean, the guy, I mean he had a great time–sense of timing with his humor as well.
Mo Udall (video clip)
I was in Minnesota once with Hubert Humphrey and I said, Hubert, I said 20 years ago, Minnesota was one-party Republican and we were one-party Democrat and now it's switched around. This was true at the time I was there. I said, I didn't know until tonight what had caused this. As I went through the audience at the reception, they were saying, "Do you know my Aunt Minnie in Scottsdale?" or "Have you met Uncle George, who retired in Yuma?" And when I got up to speak, I said, thanks a hell of a lot, I now understand why we're one-party Republican and you're one-party Democrats, you sent us all the Republicans in the state.
John McCain
When I came to the house, I was a member of the Interior Committee, the most junior guy. Here's the most powerful chairman. This is a great story. And he literally took me to raise. And you know, I have to say, now in these years, I really didn't know much about the issues of Arizona as far as land, water—
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, you hadn't lived here.
John McCain
Yeah, I hadn't lived here.
Sandra Day O'Connor
You didn't grow up here. Where did you grow up?
John McCain
Everywhere. I—my father was in the Navy and so I grew up everywhere. So I'm a brand new man. I think I'd been about four months in the, in the House Representatives and Mo called me one day, he said, "I'm going to go to Casa Grande, going to have a big press conference. We're going to talk about all our plans for the Interior Committee and all the issues that affect Arizona." And he said, "Would you like to join me?" And I said, "Well yeah, I'd love to." So I go to Casa Grande, all the media are there from both Tucson and Phoenix, and he said, "And now on mining reclamation law, Congressman McCain and I are working on a new piece of legislation, right?" And I'd say—I did not have a clue. (laughs)
Sandra Day O'Connor
(laughs) What did you say?
John McCain
I just nodded my head and said, "Absolutely," we were [inaudible] the whole time. But see here, here's a liberal Democrat, a brand new member of Congress, a conservative member of Congress, and yet because of our Arizona tradition, he reaches out to me and literally took me under his wing. There was no benefit for, for Mo Udall.
Sandra Day O'Connor
That was him. He really was a special guy.
John McCain
And it was also a tradition of the Arizona delegation, small delegation working together, Republican and Democrat. I'd like to tell you that's the same way today, it's not.
Sandra Day O'Connor
It isn't?
John McCain
No. No.
Sandra Day O'Connor
That's sad.
John McCain
It's very sad.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Because it was a great tradition for our state.
Mo Udall (video clip)
Somebody asked me why it was that Arizona, a dinky little state with 1% of the nation's population, produced leaders like John Rhodes and Barry Goldwater and Ernest McFarland and Stu Udall and the others that have been mentioned. And I said seriously, I didn't know but I thought it had something to do with the civilized kind of brand of politics. You go to some states, and your opponent is automatically a thief and a crook and there's little respect for the other side. And we had a, I've had a civilized relationship with Barry, and you, and John Rhodes and all the people we've mentioned. I think it's, that's probably the explanation if there is one. I think the other thing that made our state the way it is, is that we can laugh together and laugh at each other and laugh at ourselves. This guy was the target of more damned humor in 1964 than anybody, and he handled it better than anybody. You remember the old story, he was supposed to asked, if he's elected and the Soviets start a nuclear strike, what are you going to do? And he says, "The first thing you do is get the wagons in a circle." Right? He doesn't want to talk about '64, and I don't blame you. I don't want to talk about '76, I get tired of getting reminded of being beaten by Jimmy Carter.
Barry Goldwater (video clip)
Well, it's, that's not as bad as being beaten by Lyndon Johnson.
Mo Udall (video clip)
We're gonna have a separate debate on that subject here.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Now, you came here not knowing much about Arizona, and you put your hat in the ring right away. Now what led you to do that?
John McCain
Well, I talked to several people out here in Arizona. My wife Cindy, you know, is Arizona born and raised and I was unable to stay in the Navy because I couldn't pass my flight physical anymore. So, make a long story short, it came out and John Rhodes had announced that he was retiring. And so I—
Sandra Day O'Connor
When did you [inaudible] political?
John McCain
Usually, at the time—it just, I just went around and knocked on doors and did the things that, that, the drudge work. I still believe the reason why I won the House race was two reasons. One, it was a very divided primary. And second is because I knocked on 10,000 doors. Today. 30 years later, I still meet people who say to me, you know, I voted for you. I didn't know anything about you, but you came to my house.
Sandra Day O'Connor
That's amazing. But you also are the only genuine certified war hero that our state has ever had. I mean, you were incredible.
John McCain
Well, yes. And I think people appreciate that—
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, I hope so!
John McCain
But that doesn't, you've got to give them a reason to vote for you. Too many people you and I have known who've had significant accomplishments figure that therefore, they will—
Sandra Day O'Connor
That entitles them.
John McCain
Yeah. People thank you for your service, but they want to know what you're going to do for them. And that was, I think, something that was important. But the personal contact in a campaign like that was the reason why I was able to, to succeed. And then of course, I knew that Barry was going to, that was the end of his—
Sandra Day O'Connor
But was he a help to you?
John McCain
Yes, he was very helpful to me. Barry was very helpful. I never knew Barry as much as I knew Mo because I used to see Mo every day. And also, you know, Barry, to me, is an inspiration every single day because of his honesty and integrity. But also, Barry was a little gruff sometimes, at times. (laughs)
Sandra Day O'Connor
He was, he was! He didn't mind rubbing a few feathers the wrong way.
John McCain
He didn't. He was the real thing. You know, I, a lot of people don't appreciate the fact that he was a member of the Phoenix City Council, defeated, defeated a Majority Leader of the United States Senate. He can't, how could possibly, a Phoenix, a city councilman, defeat the all-powerful majority leader?
Sandra Day O'Connor
It doesn't wash, but it did somehow.
Barry Goldwater (video clip)
I'll never forget. I came back here one day on Central Arizona Project business, and Mac had just been made leader, Majority Leader of the Senate. And I said, "Mac, you are out of your head." I said, "You cannot carry that Truman. He's going to be too heavy an anvil around your neck. Someone's gonna beat you!" And, never dreaming for one minute that I would be the guy to try it. Because I used to go out and raise money for him, I liked him so much. And, well, that's the way it went.
John McCain
And the other story of course, John Rhodes, he, he went out to see John Rhodes, they were putting together a ticket. The Republican Party I think was outnumbered by 3-to-1 voter registration, as you recall. And he saw John Rhodes, who was a lawyer, who was from, originally from Kansas, was he, here in World War II in the, in the Army and Army Air Corps. And he said, "Look, I want you to run for Congress out here, this is the other seat." And I think we had two seats at that time and a half. And John Rhodes, who was, "Barry, I don't want to go to Washington." And Barry said, "Don't worry, you won't. We just need you on this ticket." Well, next No-—
Sandra Day O'Connor
What do you know?
John McCain
The next November—
Sandra Day O'Connor
There he was.
John McCain
Phoenix City Council, and John Rhodes, John Rhodes stayed 30 years. A lovely man, as you know, Sandra.
Sandra Day O'Connor
I know. He was fabulous.
John McCain
He was so, he was a lovely guy.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well now, we've produced some presidential candidates from out here, didn't we?
John McCain
Losers. (laughs)
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, that's a candidate.
John McCain
Good news is candidates. Bad news is losers.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Ah well, but it's been amazing.
John McCain
When I'm in, to audiences. I say, "Look, I want you to, I want to have sympathy for the families of the state of Arizona. Because Barry Goldwater from Arizona ran for President of the United States. And Morris Udall from Arizona ran for President of the United States. And Bruce Babbitt from Arizona ran for President of the United States. And I from Arizona ran for President of the United States. Arizona may be the only state in America where mothers don't tell their children that someday they can grow up and be President of the United States."
Sandra Day O'Connor
(laughs) They can run for it though, right?
John McCain
(laughs) That's right.
Sandra Day O'Connor
They tell him, "You can grow up, son, and run for it!"
John McCain
There you go.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Which they did. What, what led you to end up throwing your hat in the presidential ring?
John McCain
I thought that, given the times and given the situation that I—and a lot of people did come to me and say that they wanted me to run. And you have to have a certain amount of backing. It's a, so it's a tough decision because it's a tough grind. And, but to think really, I still wonder sometimes a guy who did not do well at the Naval Academy, me, who managed to crash four airplanes, managed to get shot down by a surface-to-air missile, could run for President of the United States. It's a humbling and wonderful experience, and you put your heart and soul into it, as you well know. And I don't regret a day of it.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Good.
John McCain
And by the way, one of the things I do not regret is Sarah Palin. And I'll be glad to, I think she's a wonderful person and I, she energized our party and I still kind of, if there's anything I resent about the last campaign, it's that people are still attacking her. Why that should be, I do not know.
Sandra Day O'Connor
It's hard to figure that that would be the case. Well you're the only genuine certified war hero that our nation has had, I guess, other than George Washington. But you really—
John McCain
Oh, stop. George Herbert Walker Bush.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, George Bush, Yes, that's true.
John McCain
He was a great war hero. Barry Goldwater flew, as you know, flew every airplane that the United States Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force had. Barry Goldwater was a reserve General, as you know, and he loved to fly. He loved aviation. And he flew every airplane up to and including the B-1 bomber! I mean—
Sandra Day O'Connor
It's something. And a photographer. He was phenomenal.
John McCain
You know, when he went down to Colorado with a group of people, he was, I think the 43rd person. This was obviously before Glen Canyon Dam. And he had a book which I have a copy of and now you probably do too, and it's entitled Delightful Journey. And every day on that trip, he had some pictures for every single day. It's a marvel–and these are wooden boats.
Sandra Day O'Connor
But he was a phenomenal photographer. He gave me a photo one time of a very elderly Navajo woman looking so serious. And then he wrote, unfortunately, on the back of the photo, "Sandra, she is serious, but so am I. -Barry." I need to figure out how to get that description on the front.
John McCain
(laughs) I have four of them, and I'm sure that's one of the four that I have. And you know, he took those pictures in the 1930s.
Sandra Day O'Connor
I know, he was phenomenal.
John McCain
And the camera technology in those days was nothing. And the character on the faces, really.
Sandra Day O'Connor
He really managed to do it. He was phenomenal.
John McCain
He loved the Indians.
Sandra Day O'Connor
They respected him.
John McCain
And Mo Udall loved the Indians. The story is that when Mo Udall's mother died, the last thing she said was, "Mo, take care of the Indians."
Sandra Day O'Connor
Is that right?
John McCain
Yes. And Mo had his special, both Barry and Mo had this, you know, had this very special feel that, when, it goes all the way back to St. John's and the Goldwater store and Baron Goldwater and all that. This relationship with Native Americans was, that they both had, was really unique.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, that's something. Now you had personal contact with Ronald Reagan from time to time.
John McCain
Yes, I knew he was wise man. I knew even, he was even wiser when he selected you to be on the United States Supreme Court. (laughs)
Sandra Day O'Connor
(laughs) I don't know about that. No, but he was amazing.
John McCain
A lovely man.
Sandra Day O'Connor
He was.
John McCain
A lovely man. And you know, he had a great ability to not react to the insults and barbs of his enemies. He never lowered himself to, to a level. He would just kind of smile and shake his head. And you remember, in the debate he had with Jimmy Carter, and Jimmy Carter was attacking him and he said, he just turned and he said, "There you go again."
Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes.
John McCain
Remember that?
Sandra Day O'Connor
That was a great line.
John McCain
Perfect. End of the election campaign.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes.
John McCain
"There you go again."
Sandra Day O'Connor
That was perfect.
John McCain
And, you know, he had a gentleness about him, but also inside that gentleness was a steel, and a fundamental core of principles that he never deviated from. That was what made him, I think, and Margaret Thatcher, two of the great leaders of the 20th century.
Sandra Day O'Connor
And they knew each other and respected each other. It was so nice to see, wasn't it?
John McCain
It's a, and the affection that existed between them.
Sandra Day O'Connor
I know.
John McCain
I first met him, Ronald Reagan when I came home from prison. There was a whole lot of pilots who were POWs who were from California because the carriers and some of the squadrons were based out of the military bases in California. So when we came home, he had a couple of receptions for, for the POWs, and I got to meet him. He was governor of California, as you know. And I got to meet him and spend time with him, then. And I can tell you, he, he had a certain humanity about him and a concern for people and a genuine love.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Yeah, he did.
John McCain
And a lot of people think, Oh, you know, his presidency was totally successful. It wasn't, as you remember. In 1982, when I ran, there was a wipe-out. They called it the Reagan Recession. And I mean, they were really tough times. And he was attacked viciously by, by some of them. We have a tendency to forget all of that. But he just sailed right along. And when tough decisions were made, he made them. And I still think that if there's any phrase that that epitomizes Ronald Reagan's tenure as President of the United States was, "Tear down this wall, Mr. Gorbachev."
Sandra Day O'Connor
Yeah, memorable.
John McCain
Memorable. And what Margaret Thatcher once said, he won the Cold War without firing a shot.
Ronald Reagan
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall."
Sandra Day O'Connor
Amazing.
John McCain
I mean, it, truly amazing.
Sandra Day O'Connor
It was.
John McCain
And he believed in American exceptionalism. He believed America has the leadership right, and the–
Sandra Day O'Connor
But we don't hear that as much today.
John McCain
I know today, Ronald Reagan would be standing up for the people in Syria who are being massacred today.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes.
John McCain
I just know he would be.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes. Yes. Now, you're in the house that my husband John and i built out of sun-dried adobes made out of the Salt River bed in Tempe.
John McCain
Yes indeed.
Sandra Day O'Connor
What we try to do in this house is to remind people working in government and for government, that civil talk should lead to civic action. And it seems to me things have been a little less than civil, both at the local, state, and national levels likely. Do you see that? Is there a change?
John McCain
I think there has been a significant change. I think that we've become more polarized. You know, the approval rating of Congress is now at 11%. I have not met anyone in the 11% bracket lately. And if I do, I want to ask them why they approve of us. What is it that–
Sandra Day O'Connor
Yeah, what is it we've done right?
John McCain
Yeah, how did they, how did they get into that 11%? So–
Sandra Day O'Connor
But in those same polls, the Supreme Court had been quite high historically on those ratings. And it also has dropped lately. So I don't know what's going on.
John McCain
The Supreme Court, I think, you know far better than I do, but there seems to be a certain polarization there that, maybe we–
Sandra Day O'Connor
I don't think so, really. They don't all agree on everything, but they haven't done that for years, so.
John McCain
As you know, I, I have the greatest respect for the United States Supreme Court. But the Citizens United decision has unleashed a flood of money that, I promise you, there will be major scandals. There's too much money. You know, one of the things that I–and many things that I regret about your decision to leave the Court when you did, although I certainly respect it and admire it, was that you were one of the only people that ever actually ran for public office.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes.
John McCain
And you had a better understanding of what elections are about.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, today, judges are drawn from a different area. In the early days of the country, the Supreme Court members had been governors and this, that and the other thing. Not any longer. That's changed. You're right.
John McCain
When Kennedy became president, he appointed the best and the brightest to his cabinet, McNamara and Rusk and all these people. And they came to Lyndon Johnson and said to him, "What do you think about all these people? Boy, they're just all the best and the brightest, people are all–" and he said, "I just wish one of them had run for county sheriff. I just wish one who had run for county sheriff." Isn't it true that you and Justice Rehnquist were the last two that had had, had any real political involvement?
Sandra Day O'Connor
I guess. He was active at a local level, certainly, when he was practicing law here.
John McCain
But you were the only one that actually been in a political campaign.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Up there in the [inaudible]. Yeah, that's true. Now, I visited Vietnam and I went to the cell that they told me you had been occupying for a time. And it was a very moving experience, I couldn't even imagine how you came out of that, to tell you the truth.
Well, you know, one of the things, the major factors is the bond and strength that we extended to one another. The Vietnamese kept us in, a lot of us, in solitary confinement for a long period of time. They did that to prevent us from communicating with each other. We always beat them because we would tap on the walls to each other. So we would give each other strength, and those people that I know best and love most are those who I had the honor of serving with. I have a dear and beloved friend who's, was my senior ranking officer. He's the most highly decorated living American. Congressional Medal of Honor and every other—his name was Bud Day, he's in ill health.
Sandra Day O'Connor
The last name was Day?
John McCain
D-A-Y.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well I kind of like that.
John McCain
There you go.
Sandra Day O'Connor
And where was he from?
John McCain
He was from Iowa originally. But he was a source of great strength to the rest of us because he was our senior ranking officer, and that…I think, you know, you get better as time goes on. You get tougher as time goes on. And I almost died when I was first shot down. But I was very lucky. The one thing I, I tell Cindy and our kids when we're in some place, I say one thing, like in an airplane when it gets a little rough, I say, "Not to worry, I'm dying in bed. I know I'm going to die, but it's going to be in bed. It's not going to be in an airplane."
Sandra Day O'Connor
You had your chance for that and missed it.
John McCain
There you go. Could I say, I think that you have inspired and are a role model to millions of young women around this country, and maybe even the world. We are so proud of the people that Arizona has produced. And in my view, you're right there. Number one.
Sandra Day O'Connor
I don't know about that. But Arizona has produced some decent leaders through the years, hasn't it?
John McCain
It's amazing.
Sandra Day O'Connor
And I love this state.
John McCain
Well, the state loves you, and the country loves you. And that's one of the, another one of the great legacies, frankly, of Ronald Reagan, is your, is your selection.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, we are very indebted to a guy named John McCain, I'll tell you that. You are the hero.
John McCain
Well, are you going to sometime chronicle your meetings with Ronald Reagan and how this whole, this whole confirmation process took place? I thought you would do that sometime.
Sandra Day O'Connor
You know I probably should–you know, I didn't, I had met Ronald Reagan. He used to come to Phoenix for some of these speeches, they had some fundraisers, and he would come because Nancy Reagan's parents lived in Phoenix.
John McCain
Yes, they lived over in the Biltmore.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Right. And so, he would come occasionally, and I got to shake his hand, but we didn't know each other.
John McCain
But I still think in the future people will like to know about the process that the first woman ever appointed to the United States Supreme Court went through. I hope you'll make that part of—
Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, we'll talk about it sometime.
John McCain
I think it'd be a great thing.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Thank you so much for talking to us about this. I, you are Arizona's certified hero, as you know, and it's just such a privilege to be with you and to have you here and to have you in public office. I'm so grateful that you could come and do this.
John McCain
I'm honored.
Sandra Day O'Connor
Arizona loves you.
John McCain
Thank you.
Sandra Day O'Connor (video clip)
This is Sandra Day O'Connor. And I want to thank you for joining us on this Centennial series, where we're telling some of the stories and the importance of Arizona's hundredth birthday. We're glad to have you join us.